Thu 4 Jan 2007
Genetic Egalitarianism
Posted by David Dudley Field '25 under Admissions at 1:09 am
Michael S. McPherson and Morton Owen Schapiro (henceforth, MM) provide an excellent introduction to the topic of wealth and elite higher education in America. Their introductory chapter, like the book which serves as the backbone for our Winter Study seminar, is a fair and balanced account of the research exploring why poor students are underrepresented at elite colleges and universities. MM, as befits their status as leading scholars, offer the key background and references to this topic.
Yet, MM suffer from a bind spot, a failure to take the most obvious explanation for this underrepresentation seriously. Recall the primary puzzle (at least at schools like Williams): If 20% of all 18 year-olds come, by definition, from families in the bottom 20% of the income distribution, why do such students make up a much smaller percentage (5% or less) of the students at Williams?
There are many different answers to this question, and the truth undoubtedly involves some combination. MM provide a useful overview of almost all the important reasons. But, in the midst of this balanced approach, they write:
For reasons most people could easily name, students from impoverished backgrounds are less well educated and less well prepared for college than are those from more favored backgrounds. There is no reason to believe that there is anything inherently wrong with these kids — this is not a matter of genetics. Rather, the simple fact is that they have grown up and been educated in circumstances that are much less favorable than those facing other Americans. These important features of American education are part of the background against which the policies and practices of a given college or university are set.
It is simply a falsehood that genetics plays no role in who does and who does not end up at Williams. No one afflicted with Down’s Syndrome (or with any of a host of similar genetic ailments) attends a place like Williams. Genes matter.
MM will retort that a) their argument only applies to the 98% of the population without such genetic problems and/or b) there is no reason to believe that the incidence of genetic problems is any greater in families in the bottom 20% of the income distribution relative to richer families.
But once we head down the rabbit hole of intelligence and genetics and wealth, MM will be forced to confront an entire literature which they would rather just ignore.
Although the IQ page at Wikipedia provides good coverage, we can start with Williams Professor Saul Kassin’s claim that:
Intelligence is the capacity to learn from experience and adapt successfully to one’s environment.
Group aptitude tests include the SAT and the ACT.
General intelligence is a broad factor underlying all mental abilities and evidence from studies of infants and adults support this concept.
Studies of twins and other relatives show a heredity influence on intelligence.
In other words, people who do well on the SAT tend to have children who do well on the SAT. There is no doubt that a large portion of this correlation is due to nurture. Parents who grow up surrounded by books tend to surround their children with books, and this can’t but help one’s SAT score. But, among serious scholars like Kassin, there is just no disputing that intelligence, like height, is partly genetic.
Those looking for background can try this 1994 Wall Street Journal op-ed “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” (pdf or html) as well as “Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns” (pdf or html), the Task Force Report from the American Psychological Association on which it was based. The science has only gotten more certain in the last decade. Try Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction.
For now, I want to leave aside any consideration of race. (Those curious might start here.) Take 100 Caucasian children from Denmark or African children from Zimbabwe or Chinese children from Shanghai and you will find the same thing. On average, smart parents (of any race) have smart children just as tall parents, on average, have tall children. There are, as always, plenty of exceptions. And environment plays just as important a role in height as it does in IQ. Yet the main results are clear.
It would be one thing if MM took account of this literature, if they reported the results of scholars like Kassin, if they confronted this evidence and then argued that the heritability of IQ was irrelevant to their analysis. But MM do none of those things. They act as if the entire field of psychometrics does not exist, as if they can sweep 100 years of research under the rug. Unfortunately, they (and we) must confront the world as it is and not as we would wish it to be.
Imagine that, instead of worrying why the children of poor parents are underrepresented at elite colleges, MM were concerned that the children of short parents were underrepresented on college basketball teams. (I don’t have data on this, but I find it hard to believe that 20% of college basketball players have parents in the bottom 20% of the height distribution.) One can easily image all the non-genetic paths which might contribute this result. Short parents played less basketball growing up, so they do not expose their children to as much basketball as tall parents do. Tall parents are more likely to want to coach youth teams and tend to favor players who come from families “like” theirs. And so on.
But only a fool would claim that “There is no reason to believe that there is anything inherently wrong with these kids — this is not a matter of genetics.” Everyone will agree that height is partly genetic and that height correlates with success in basketball.
Once we establish these basic facts, we can argue about the size of the effect. Even if it is true that genes matter, they may not matter much. Yet we must get down and dirty with the literature in order to have that discussion. Instead, MM prefer to pretend that genes don’t matter — that genes can’t matter.
Once we start taking genes seriously, then the explanation which MM ignore becomes all too obvious. Two things are true of smart people relative to not-so-smart people. Smart people make more money and have smarter children. (Tall people play better basketball and have taller children.) It is, therefore, no surprise that children from families in the highest 20% of the income distribution are overrepresented at Williams. (Children from families in the top 20% of the height distribution are overrepresented in collegiate basketball.)
If you haven’t already, you should read this paper. It is a excellent introduction to an important body of research. Yet McPherson and Schapiro, like almost all the authors who work in this area, not only ignore the impact of genetics, they demand that the rest of us do so as well. They assume genetic egalitarianism, i.e., that genes have no significant influence on life outcomes like admission to elite colleges, that, for all practical purposes, one persons genes are the same as another’s.
How much, if at all, genetics explain the overrepresentation of students from wealthy families — indeed, how much their real “wealth” is a matter of genes rather than dollars — is an empirical question. Let the data decide.
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36 Responses to “Genetic Egalitarianism”
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March 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 pm
[…] easily take that same analysis back into the 1980s and, I bet, find the same thing. Now, I have no problem with that result. I just don’t like to see Williams imply something that is not […]
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'04 says:
Why don’t we talk about the fact that people in prison don’t seem to be martriculating to Williams? Where is our recruitment effort of these young men and women, who know so much better than most American youth the meanings of hard labor and truth or consequences?
Or, would that be TOTALLY INANE. Like present topic of discussion.
“How much, if at all, genetics explain the overrepresentation of students from wealthy families — indeed, how much their real “wealth” is a matter of genes rather than dollars — is an empirical question. Let the data decide.”
Oh, let’s not. The data is damned flawed, probably, too. Let’s just decide it’s an answer not worth pursuing in comparison to the other thigns we could be trying to address.
January 4th, 2007 at 5:27 amfrank uible says:
One feature of a free society is that in general people are permitted to pursue things which are not worth pursuing. And of course, the vast majority of subjects which people, in fact, do pursue can be, and have been, not unreasonably and (in such a society) not impermissibly regarded as unworthy of pursuit, but nonetheless those people are allowed to engage in what others may consider as being foolish or even insidious.
January 4th, 2007 at 7:02 amWhitney Wilson '90 says:
I don’t think anyone would disagree with the proposition that some people are more intelligent than others. (There is undoubtedly much disagreement about how intelligence is best measured, and whether traditional measures of intelligence (IQ tests, etc.) are “accurate”. As you noted in your piece, it is likely that differences in intelligence are at least partially “inheritable.”
The real questions, then are two-fold: (1) To what extent is “intelligence” correlated with wealth (intuitively you would think there has to be some correlation), and (2) to what extent does success at, and contributions to, Williams correlate with the type of intelligence which correlates with wealth.
January 4th, 2007 at 10:18 amrory says:
round and round we go…where we stop, Kane will know…
and unsurprisingly, it’s another loooooong piece about IQ and college admissions and genetics.
January 4th, 2007 at 10:47 amDavid says:
If Rory would rather talk about something other then genetics, that is fine by me since so many of the same arguments apply to nurture as well as nature. MM hint at this literature when they write:
So, even if we accept genetic egalitarianism as an assumption, we still have the problem that the environment provided by poor families is so much worse than that provided by rich families that “gaps” start at a very young age. Note that this is not a matter of rich families hiring SAT tutors for their 5 year-olds. Instead, the differences are much deeper.
The entire article is an amazing read. I would personally ascribe a lot of what’s going on to genetics, but, even if that’s wrong, the key observation is that, given different parenting styles between rich and poor, there is no reason to expect that 20% of the students at Williams will (or should) come from families in the bottom 20% of the income distribution. Whether IQ/intelligence/SAT/grades/AP (or whatever the Williams Admissions Department uses) is affected more by genes or by family environment, the important point is that, by age 18 (and generally much earlier, according to MM and others), the die has been cast. You are either have Williams caliber smarts or you don’t. Blame your genes. Blame the fact that your mother didn’t read to you. Blame both. But don’t try to pretend that a 1300 SAT by someone from a poor family means the same thing as a 1500 by someone from a rich family. It doesn’t.
Nor can you expect Williams to try to make up for this deficit, anymore than a college basketball team would have members that would have been great players if it had not been for their genes or their youth coaching.
So, the real focus, I think, of the disagreement between Rory and me is not so much whether genes matter to intelligence. Even if Rory is correct and the differences are 100% nurture, I would still oppose meaningful amounts of class-based affirmative action to make up for this unfortunate state of affairs.
This is a topic that several of our later readings will touch on in more depth.
January 4th, 2007 at 11:36 amrory says:
David,
I made no claims, except to be bored by you returning to the IQ and genetic claim. I also never supported class-based affirmative action as the fix.
I remember that article in the NY Times, and though it’s somewhat simplistic with some of its look at the research, it was a great read. But the difference between genetic explanations and nurture explanations is clear: one can be changed (if we want, and if we’ve thought long and hard about what it means to change these things–maybe we don’t want all families to imitate wealthy white folk) and once cannot. One involves a potential for a true equality of opportunity, and one just blames it on nature.
So, if Williams believes it is nurture and believes it should play a role in making the class diversity of williams more like American class diversity (both big “if”s), then Williams could start putting together programs to find and/or help alleviate the nurture problems, even as early as age 1 or 2.
One thing I’ll caution you on, David, is the term “worse”. One of the authors mentioned in the full article is Annette Lareau. Her finding indicates that there is a difference between working class and upper class child-rearing, with different advantages. For the working class student, following orders and entertaining one’s self with limited means were important (and valuable adaptation tools). For the upper class student, asserting one’s desires and striving for more is important (and a valuable adaption). Considering what college is in society today, the upper class student is “better prepared” but they aren’t “better” than the working class student. Nor is the environment of the working class family “worse” (as you write), but different.
The canard of the “proper” “normal” family infiltrated your entire claim.
January 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pmrory says:
I meant “post”, but “claim” works as well.
January 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pmDavid says:
1) I appreciate Rory’s comments. It is precisely this sort of dialog that CGCL is meant to encourage.
2) There are many worthy social causes that Williams might involve itself with, from improving the educational environment for poor children to helping wounded war veterans reintegrate back into society. Whatever the worthy cause, my position is the same. Williams should do nothing that is not directly connected to the quality of undergraduate education at Williams.
3) I appreciate your caution on the use of the term “worse” and completely agree with most of your sentiments. There is nothing wrong with high SAT scores or serious basketball skills, but there is nothing about these talents which makes someone a better person in any moral sense. I am simply making empirical claims about the causes and consequences of these attributes.
That said, there is little doubt that, in reality, you and I, like almost all Williams graduates, will raise our children in a very similar way. Such child-rearing methods are, empirically, “normal” for people like us. The vast majority of Williams graduates would view, say, surrounding your children with books and reading to them every night, as “proper.” I do not see how this is an “canard.”
Specifically, you write:
Well, it is “worse” if you want your children to love learning and excel it. If it isn’t “worse,” then why won’t you raise your children this way?
It is, obviously, not morally worse. Here, as above, I am trying to make empirical, not moral, judgments.
January 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pmX says:
KAneblog: rich white guys announcing their genetic superiority and arguing for affirmative action for conservatives. Pathetic.
January 4th, 2007 at 2:10 pmPinkoCommieEph says:
Kane: it seems to me that a piece like this should contain at least a brief summary of the argument being discussed. McPherson and Schapiro’s chapter is well-argued and clearly-written, so this should not have been a very difficult task. However, instead of doing this, you punt, writing that they “offer the key background and references to this topic”, and then take a single, rather unimportant sentence and go off on one of your hobby horses. Had you actually written anything resembling a precis, we might have found out: that SATs correlate strongly with parental income; that the ability of applicants to pay is a key issue in admission decisions in practice; that institutions of higher ed often reject high need applicants while accepting low/no need applicants with weaker qualifications; why looking at ‘elite’ institutions matters, even though they only educate a tiny slice of college graduates; and that wealth distribution has become less balanced in the recent past. But your piece does none of these things, and so falls flat.
Were you actually a Williams student, and I actually your instructor, I would wonder if you were out partying the first night back, opened the reading a few minutes before class, and picked the first sentence you could write a few lines on. And if I gave you a failing grade, I suppose you’d just blame daddy’s genes, then rejoin the beer pong game?
January 4th, 2007 at 2:55 pmPinkoCommieEph says:
Oh yeah. My point: there’s plenty of good stuff to discuss in McPherson and Schapiro’s article. Let’s not get distracted by the noise that Kane injects into this discussion (though I am not sure that it can be avoided on KaneBlog; oh to actually be on campus and have a real forum!)
January 4th, 2007 at 2:59 pmDavid says:
PinkoCommieEph
1) This is a seminar. We expect people to, you know, do the reading. We want all our discussants to, you know, discuss the articles, not just provide a summary.
2) I agree completely that “there’s plenty of good stuff to discuss in McPherson and Schapiro’s article.” Pick an aspect that you like/dislike/whatever and discuss it. I (along with others) can then react to your comments. And it would be nice to have a “real forum,” but we must make do with what we have.
3) Note that our focus is on elite education, the score or so richest and most selective schools in the country, places like Williams. Accepting less qualified but richer applicants, while a real issue for the next tier of schools, does not play a meaningful part in the admissions decisions of places like Williams. As MM have documented in detail elsewhere, this is an important issue for schools in lower tiers.
January 4th, 2007 at 3:06 pmPinkoCommieEph says:
1) My point exactly. Discuss the *!&$#ing article.
January 4th, 2007 at 3:09 pmrory says:
The “canard”, David, is the idea that the two-parent upper class household has been anything other than rare. That which is deemed “normal” (white, upper class, two parents) and traditional is far from normal and tradition. And, as feminist scholarship (yes, I mention feminist scholarship with approval–deal with it :P) has shown, such assumptions about the family are at the base of many problems of inequality.
I will raise my children by reacting to their interests and by exposing them to mine. I will also make sure that they don’t look down upon children whose parents don’t enjoy reading and critical thinking. My love of the intellectual journey does not presuppose that that love is “better” than a love for, say, mechanical creativity or emotional empathy (both of which I love, but not to the same extent). There is no reason to replace the term “better prepared” which acknowledges that the structure around a family supports one preparation over the other with the term “better” which reifies the structural hierarchy.
Crap, David, look what you’ve done–I’ve referenced feminism and used the term “reify”. LOOK WHAT YOU’VE DONE!?!
January 4th, 2007 at 4:51 pmfrank uible says:
Didn’t social Darwinism go out with nickel beers?
January 4th, 2007 at 5:05 pmrory says:
i actually had a nickel beer recently at a happy hour…
January 4th, 2007 at 5:27 pmfrank uible says:
Does that mean social Darwinism is alive and kicking? It seems that we are taking it seriously here.
January 4th, 2007 at 9:02 pmEric S. says:
Accepting David’s position on the importance of heredity to intelligence does not necessarily require accepting his perspective that MM have erred in assuming away that causal element of admissions and attendance disparities from their analysis, just that it limits its completeness.
For one thing, it would be entirely plausible to accept a correlation between intelligence and parental income and believe that the American educational system — including the higher education system — should be designed to correct for that. And if not entirely to correct for it, to correct for it as much as possible – perhaps by identifying all the other obstacles facing those with lower incomes — as MM attempt to do, and eliminating those.
Even someone fairly conservative from a political perspective, thoroughly committed to an American ideal of equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes, might come to find this appropriate — putting aside for a moment MM’s perspective that the necessary solutions seem to involve radically overhauling health care, tax policy, welfare, and more. For instance, a supply-side believer may see that society is far better off on the whole with a lower overall tax burden, financed by fewer redistributive programs.
Yet the American dream of equality of opportunity is very difficult to measure. As fluffy as outcome-based statistics are, “opportunity” statistics are even more questionable. In my view, given the deeply-held commitment to an American ideal that includes class mobility and this country’s foundation in Judeo-Christian values about community and assistance for the less-fortunate, even conservatives should accept that at a minimum they will need a society in which a substantial fraction of those in the bottom economic quintile progress up the ladder in the course of their lifetimes (the unfortunate thing about income distributions, of course, is that if one can trumpet that half of the bottom quintile have moved up in the last x years, that will mean that an equal number have dropped down into that quintile in the same period).
If you accept this premise, then you may be willing to sacrifice some amount of meritocracy in your educational system for greater access by the less-fortunate both to elite institutions and in greater numbers to the middle-tier educational institutions which MM discuss.
To do this, perhaps you broaden the understanding of “meritocracy” to encompass virtues other than those measured by the SAT. Reading this blog, I’ve seen David support this idea over admissions “tips” for athletes. I agree, because my view of an ideal institution includes virtues that can only be achieved by permitting some students to substitute (some) athletic talents for (some) intellectual ones. I support limited alumni preferences for a similar reason.
It’s undoubtedly true that leaving out any discussion of the correlation of income and intelligence skews the discussion, however. From discussing this issue, I know (and I would bet others do as well), that there are a lot of proffered reasons about why we should omit genetics from the conversation anyway.
David suggests one way in which this matters, by altering the goal line (i.e. the bottom 20% of the income distribution shouldn’t yield 20% of the admits). Fine — but because I think that the factors MM do discuss also play a role in causing 20% to yield 5%, and because I think it may be a laudatory goal to try to make up for those disparities in intelligence, I’d need to hear another argument about how this warps the conversation before crediting this as a devastating critique.
January 4th, 2007 at 10:38 pmEric S. says:
As an aside to my comment above, I think David’s point does symbolize a tendency throughout MM’s “Introduction” to assume that a set of commonly-accepted liberal-academic opinions are not opinions at all, but facts. For instance, MM blithely accept claims about growing income inequalities, and even that these are “certainly” due — at least in part — to “changes in the tax system that favor the wealthy.” I think both points are highly contested. The share of the federal budget financed by taxpayers in the top 1% of income has never been higher, and I hear good things about Cato economist Alan Reynolds’ forthcoming paper disputing commonly-assumed trends in income inequality.
MM also demonstrate a surprising dedication to academic orthodoxy in their claims — based in the Introduction on Table Four — that rising tuitions have been driven by shrinking state budgetary support for higher education.
Given the tremendous growth in U.S. GDP over that time — doubling in real dollar terms — and the much smaller growth in population (increasing by about 30%), I’m having trouble figuring out what the Table 4 data actually shows.
January 4th, 2007 at 10:59 pmDavid says:
Eric asks (reasonably):
The insistence that less than 20% represents an unfair or even undesirable outcome “warps the conversation” because it prevents us from discussing, in an open and reasonable way, what is possible in this imperfect world.
Note that this point has nothing to do with genetics. Assume that we are all born with exactly the same genetic potential to do well at Williams or to play Division 1 athletics. All the differences in our abilities that manifest themselves later in life are due to our environment. The reason that some 17 year-olds score 1500 on the SATs is because their parents read to them as children or turned of the TV or praised their school work. The reason that other 17 year-olds gone leap 30 inches or shoot 3 pointers is because their parents played ball with them or signed them up for youth basketball or fed them a healthy diet.
And, just to continue this little thought experiment, assume that everything that the state can plausibly do to help parents is being done. (Goodness knows that I hope our new Governor of Massachusetts arranges school vouches so that every child in Massachusetts might attend a school as good as the ones attended by MM’s children.) Provide all the food, medical care, housing and anything else you might like.
Even in this perfect world, outcomes will still be different because parents will raise their children differently.
How different those outcomes will be is a matter of dispute, but the citations given above (and your every day experience) demonstrate a) that the home environment varies widely, in ways that the state could never (and would never want to) standardize and b) these differences have large effects. So, even in a perfect world, the percentage of students from group X (low income or Catholic or left-handed) enrolled from Williams will almost certainly be different from their percentage in the population.
Yet then we are left with a dilemma. How far are we actually away from this perfect world? Consider the case of mens Division 1 college basketball. I like to think (would others disagree?) that we are fairly close to that perfect world, that almost every boy in the US has some exposure to basketball, that almost all are given some chance at it, that any with drive and talent have an opportunity to rise to this high level.
Are we exactly at that perfect world? Of course not! Some boys never get a chance to play basketball, even if they are blessed with talent and a desire to play. Their environment prevents them from succeeding, through no fault of their own. This is a shame. But I do not think that this effect is a large one. I think that the set of men playing Division 1 basketball would be, more or less, the same in the perfect world as it is in this world.
In other words, 90% (suggest other numbers) of the men playing Division 1 would still be playing Division 1 even if every boy had precisely equal access to basketball opportunities growing up.
This is definitely not the case for something like Division 1 fencing. The vast majority of kids have almost no exposure to fencing. If opportunities were equal, the starter in Division 1 programs might be completely different from the starters that we see in this imperfect world.
So, is elite education, the 20,000 or so students admitted each year to the nations best colleges, like mens basketball or like fencing. I would guess that it is somewhere in between, but much closer to basketball than to fencing.
But, and here is the punchline [Finally! — ed.], in order to discuss this topic intelligently, we need to have a sense of what things public policy can change (high school quality), what things it can’t (genetics, home environment), and what things are somewhere in between. And, we need to know what effect these things have on student outcomes. By pretending that genetics don’t matter and downplaying the intractability of differences in home environment, MM obfuscate the problem. They make it much harder to judge how fair the process actually is today, and how we might best make it more fair tomorrow.
January 5th, 2007 at 12:45 amhwc says:
Likewise, we should not pretend that a 1300 from a well-healed hockey recruit means the same thing as a 1500 from a second generation immigrant. It doesn’t.
January 5th, 2007 at 11:03 amhwc says:
Accepting less qualified but richer applicants, while a real issue for the next tier of schools, does not play a meaningful part in the admissions decisions of places like Williams.
Are you kidding?
It is true that admissions Williams and the other super-endowment schools may be less overtly driven by the check-writing ability. However, the entire admissions process is tilted towards enrolling full-fare customers. It is simply incorrect to say that ability to pay does not play an “meaningful role”, especially when Williams enrolls a higher percentage of wealthy full-fare customers than any of its closest liberal arts college peer institutions. That does not happen by accident. For example, one of the ways that Williams stacks the deck is by favoring private school students over public school students to a larger degree than its peer institutions.
The reason that Williams and other colleges make a specific effort to enroll non-wealthy students is that, lacking such an effort, they would enroll nothing but wealthy students — just like the good old days. Despite what David views as excessive diversity efforts, Williams is in no danger, whatsoever, of being overrun by po’ folk.
January 5th, 2007 at 11:26 amfrank uible says:
We want 1500s, hockey players and poor kids. Ideally we get a poor kid with 1500, who also is a hockey player, but when there is one 1500, one hockey player, one poor kid and only one opening, who gets it?
January 5th, 2007 at 11:41 amrory says:
that’s a trick question, frank! Williams takes whichever of the three is a legacy :)
January 5th, 2007 at 12:36 pmhwc says:
The answer to that question is what gives each college its own individual personality. Williams is more likely to take the hockey player. Amherst may be more likely to take the poor kid. Emory may be more likely to take the 1500. It’s all a function of institutional priorities.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:55 pmWick Sloane says:
I have done the reading. One of my favorite current economic indicators is the spread between the sticker price of a book, new, and the used price on Amazon. For our text:
College Access: Opportunity or Privilege? by Michael S. McPherson and Morton Owen Schapiro (Paperback – Oct 3, 2006)
Books: See all 105 items
Buy new: $18.95 /New at discount: $12.89 Used & new from $12.17
By my reckoning, this is impressive and a great compliment to Morty and Mike, hereafter M&M. To have a paperback used for double figures is something indicating value. To have used pretty much the same as new means to me that this is a high content, valuable set of issues and ideas.
To begin any broad discussion well is important. “The end depends upon the beginning’ according to another school I attended. M&M set out the situation with great clarity and rigor. I’d classify this as excellent description and explanation of the situation. For debate, how about different levels of “Why?” and “So what?” Different levels are not, to me, better or worse. Different.
M&M here explain “Why?” with clarity on the level that I’d say assumes, for the moment, not pressing any of the other assumptions and levers that set in motion the situation this seminar aims to examine. This is the first chapter. So be it.
I have my moment in the frying pan on tax and nonprofit issues later in the seminar and don’t wish to open that here.
Here is where I am stuck in a CIRC function:
1.) Elites have a huge, huge amount of money. Due to generosity and hard work and superb investment management. They have the ability on this issue to do whatever they want to.
2.) If they wanted more low income students, they would have more low-income students. There are plenty out there and no end of pedagogy available to acclimate and socialize and support them to succeed. Harvard Business School has a math camp before the opening bell. Exeter takes students to LL Bean for clothes. This is known and there is plenty of money to pay and ample time, including during the four years, to ensure these students are equal contributors.
3.) Therefore, the elites aren’t looking for more low-income students. Which is their right. I don’t here debate my version of morality and whether the elites should.
My question for a healthy discussion here is an honest examination of whether the elites want more low-income students. Evidence suggests the elites do not. On these type of blogs, it’s too easy for tone to go awry. I am trying to make this statement dispassionately for a rigorous Williams-education-enabled discussion. Not make a snide comment.
I admit that I don’t think the elites do want more low-income students, and I prefer to avoid these discussions. That’s why David had to twist my arm to bring me to this debate.
ws
January 5th, 2007 at 4:47 pmDavid says:
Wick writes:
That’s a fine sentiment, but can you sight any evidence to support the claim that Williams (or any College can “acclimate and socialize and support” less-qualified students (whether they be poor or URM or athletes or whatever) to be as successful as their more qualified peers. I do not think that you can because I do not think there is any evidence for this.
In other words, compare all the students at Williams with Academic Rank 1 with all student with AR 4. If Williams were willing to admit more AR 4 students it could bring in a lot more poor kids (as Anthony Marx is doing at Amherst). The problem is that AR 4s do much less well at Williams than AR 1s.
Wick seems to believe that there is some magic pixy dust that we can sprinkle on these AR 4s so that they will do just as well as the AR 1s, at least after they have been at Williams a year or two. What sort of dust would that be? Whatever Wick might suggest, odds are that Williams, with its endless spending on student support services of all types, Williams (and every other elite school) is probably already doing it.
So, it isn’t correct to say that the “elites” don’t want more poor students. They do want poor qualified (meaning AR 2 and above) students. They have just discovered through long experience that AR 4s, on average, do poorly at Williams and less well thereafter.
Every time Williams accepts another “poor” kid with 1300 SATs it has to reject a “rich” kid with 1500s. That is the trade-off that, rightly or wrongly, our “elites” do not want to make.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:00 pmrory says:
See: Prep for Prep, PUPP, TEAK Fellowship, Steppingstone, U Chicago scholars, the better Upward Bounds, etc.
Were williams to want to, it could fund 100 Holyoke students to spend their summer and saturdays getting academic enrichment. A decent number of those 100 could then be able to attend a school like williams.
Were every elite school to do that, well, it’s easy math. But its funding that doesn’t go directly to the institution’s goal, so if one is to limit the school’s financial expenditures like that (as you advocate), then one has a built in excuse for why the school isn’t more diverse. It’s quite a beautiful logical of exclusion.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:22 pmDavid says:
Rory,
1) I am unaware of any academic studies which demonstrate that these programs have a significant impact. I am not even asking for randomized studies, just something which makes a real effort to compare a group of students in these programs with a similar control group.
That doesn’t mean that these programs are bad or evil. They aren’t. They are good programs run by dedicated professionals. It just isn’t possible to turn non-Williams caliber students into Williams caliber students, outside of giving them a scholarship to Andover.
2) Again, the focus of Williams must be on the quality of undergraduate education at Williams, not on broader social policy which you (or I) happen to approve of. I have no problem spending lots of money on those summer programs (I forget the names) which bring students already accepted into Williams (but from less strong high schools) to campus for extra instruction. But the college should spend no money on random kids in Holyoke.
A refusal to spend money on your preferred social goals is not a “logic of exclusion.”
January 8th, 2007 at 10:59 amWick Sloane says:
David, there is also no study to prove what we propose is impossible.
There is indeed “Pixie Dust.” It’s called an education. I
In addition to what Rory notes, see go and see Freedom Writers and Stand and Deliver and the one about the L.A. teacher who does Shakespeare. That’s a book, not a movie. I will also walk you through any community college and find you 100 students who would thrive at Williams but who have never heard of it, don’t understand financial aid, and don’t believe they could ever attend such a place. Elites — this is from conversations, not a study — cast a very small net looking for low-income students. One which, I’d say, enables their lack of results/effort.
I also twist your arm on the need for scholarly studies before taking a try at stuff. Higher ed in general and elites in particular make almost all decisions, however honestly, without benefit of what anyone would call data. That the public wants high prices. That a new student center is necessary. That Williams is better than some other school. Very powerful set of beliefs drive lots of big money actions in this market. Data? None.
January 8th, 2007 at 11:07 amrory says:
David,
You just dug your own hole (in a way): Steppingstone, SEEDS, and TEAK, and Prep for Prep (as well as ABC) ALL send students to private schools like Andover as part of their mission.
And a LOT of those students end up at williams, etc.
And if Andover is able to make a student into a williams caliber student (as you assume it does), why not build a mini-andover for students right next to williams for low-income students? Perhaps a large bulk of those students would come to williams after that opportunity?
The logic of exclusion is indirect, but your desire to limit where money is spent dictates that programs that could change the status quo of admissions don’t get attempted because those with the power to change them (the colleges) aren’t to spend money on such programs. It’s the power of the hegemonic concept of self-interest for colleges universities in terms of their budget. but Wick makes that point better than I can, I think.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:13 pmWick Sloane says:
David —
Be seminar leader here and let me know if we should keep drilling down in this chapter or blend into the debate on the current topic. I don’t mind which and just want your work to make this work worthwhile.
1.) Perils of e-mail. I may be reading the tone wrong, David, on your ” It just isn’t possible to turn non-Williams caliber students into Williams caliber students, outside of giving them a scholarship to Andover.”
Recognizing the perils of e-mail and tone, to me this is a very unsettling statement. It implies that there is something totally unique about top students. I grant that in the human race, on a bell curve, there are folks somewhere on the left who may not ever make it to an elite. They may well end up happier. From my years in education, I believe that we can have at least 80% ready and able to succeed and contribute. I agree that at the end of the chapter called high school, accomplisment — not ability — is skewed to a few.
But whose fault is this? I put 80% accountability on the lack of leadership of the elite graduates of the last 30 years. Who have let these injustices occur for no good reason other than that running for school board is too much work. Elites have demonstrated that they can create wealth, and then some. A better society?
2) You also note, David: ” Again, the focus of Williams must be on the quality of undergraduate education at Williams, not on broader social policy which you (or I) happen to approve of. ”
Here is where your seminar here can make a contribution. Not to persuade the world of my views but to look hard at the assumptions beyond your statement. Looking only at students already accepted is the CIRC function that won’t increase low-income students.
OK. By this belief, by elites, that the world doesn’t have enough qualified low-income students, how could we reframe the question of what elites “must” do or what focuses on an undergraduate education. If, as elites say, education is better with a better cross section of income levels, then isn’t Rory’s idea of running a school side by side in support of the Williams — or Yale or Princeton — undergraduate education? Otherwise, Williams and others are letting students go through with an inadequate student body.
To be ready for this century, do we need to alter the frame of what can and can’t be done to support an undergraduate education? I do not mean be a foundation for any social cause. What Rory suggest is well within rational boundaries of the mission of an elite. Plenty of room for debate, but it new school is creating a better applicant pool for the elites, I have no trouble saying that supports the mission.
Strong post to follow. But, David, let me know where.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:44 pmLoweeel says:
Wick,
I think David’s claim is even weaker than merely siding on nature/nurture. While I believe that somewhere between 60-80% of intelligence is genetically determined, I don’t deny the power of nurture. Relevant to this discussion, I don’t think David does either. Rather, my reading of his comment is that there are SOME kids who, through a combination of nature and nurture up to that point, cannot or will not rise up to an AR 1 or 2 (or maybe even 3?) even with one of those supplemental programs.
Similarly, I don’t think it’s controversial that one cannot run a marathon from a completely sedentary baseline with merely a month or six weeks of dedicated training.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:27 pmDavid says:
1) Rory asks:
How many times do I need to answer this? Williams is not in the business of curing your or my or Morty’s favorite social ill. Unless it directly contributes to the improvement of the undergraduate education provided at Williams, then the College should not spend money on it.
Also, it seems a bit, uh, optimistic that a “large bulk” of such students would want to come to Williams. After living in Williamstown for 4 years already?
2) It may be fun to speculate on the “hegemonic concept of self-interest for colleges universities” but, call me Occam, I look for simpler explanations. The reason that someone who shares your values (like, say, Amherst President Anthony Marx) doesn’t build a “mini-Andover” is not because he loves all the rich kids. It is because there is no evidence that such a project would actually do much good, given the costs involved. Or do you think that Anthony Marx is just lying?
3) Wick, I would like to keep drilling down in this topic, but to each his own. Like any good class discussion, our seminar is free-wheeling and the conversation will span the entire month. But today’s other discussion has nothing to do with income, so no need to bring that topic there. I would put your next comment in this thread.
4) Lowell interprets my point correctly. There is a continuous spectrum of ability.
January 8th, 2007 at 3:15 pmrory says:
Wick’s response more than adequately explains anything I might want to add. Except that Marx is looking to make an immediate impact as well as a long-term one–I readily acknowledge that my proposal would be only a long-term impact. Thus, Marx isn’t doing it for practical reasons of efficiency. Programs like the U Chicago scholars and PUPP are very similar to building a mini-andover, just without the actual physical space (classes are held at the universities).
January 8th, 2007 at 7:11 pm