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NCAA Soccer Sectionals, Women @ Cole w/ Free Webcast

NCAA Men’s Soccer Tourney
at York (PA) College
Sat., Nov. 21 – Sun., Nov. 22nd

LIVE STATS

Saturday
11:00 AM — Ephs vs. York

Video only link, no audio — limited viewership

—————————————————– AND —————————————————–

NCAA Women’s Soccer Tourney
@ Cole Field, Williams College
Sat., Nov. 21 – Sun., Nov. 22

ALL THREE GAMES WILL BE WEBCAST, CLICK THIS LINK TO WATCH

Saturday
11:00 AM — Ephs vs. TCNJ

(Text above quoted from the Sports Info Homepage.) I made up fancy stats sheets for my commentary of tomorrow’s women’s game, and will be doing my absolute best to keep the entire commentary of the highest quality. Please e-mail me @ wls1 (at) williams.edu if you have any comments between today’s games and tomorrow’s Elite 8 game, which I will commentate regardless of today’s outcome.

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#1 Comment By David On November 21, 2009 @ 11:23 am

Exciting game!

Would be useful to get a score update every 5 minutes or so.

#2 Comment By David On November 21, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

Lord Oh Mercy!

Game is 0-0 with 30 minutes left in second half.

#3 Comment By jeffz On November 21, 2009 @ 12:30 pm

Just tuned in, Ephs in trouble, down 1-0 with time running out. Fantastic shot from outside the box from TCNJ to put them ahead, and the Ephs had a really great chance — looked like the equalizer — thwarted by the TNCJ keeper with a world cup-level save. Teams look very even but Ephs running out of time.

Ephmen tied 1-1 with York.

#4 Comment By jeffz On November 21, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

Ephwomen go down. Very even but seemed like, unlike some past years, the Ephs went down to the slightly better team today — tough draw for a sweet 16 game, for sure. Great run for the Ephs, which figures to continue at least one more season, as next year they’ll be led by a spectacular and deep group of rising seniors. Still, a heartbreaker …. hopes now rest with the men.

#5 Comment By jeffz On November 21, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

Oh, and great job announcing Will!

Men in double OT. Maybe headed for penalty kicks (uggghhh) …

note: Ephs’ season ended in PK’s in three NCAA tournaments this decade (01, 02, and 06, which also happened to be three of the best Williams teams ever).

#6 Comment By jeffz On November 21, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

Ephmen “win” the game in penalty kicks and advance to the Elite 8 tomorrow… guess they were overdue for some good karma. Upset a very strong York team. One win away from another final four for Russo (but his first in quite some time) …

#7 Comment By JeffZ On November 21, 2009 @ 2:04 pm

Other sports news today: women finish 8th and men finish 2nd at NCAA x-c national championships. The Ephs will have a dominant lead in the Director’s Cup at the end of the fall season behind those two finishes plus women’s soccer and volleyball (both ninth) and men’s soccer (no worse than fifth). Crazy good fall season for the Ephs.

#8 Comment By Dan Winston ’09 On November 21, 2009 @ 2:30 pm

And don’t forget that the men’s crew won the Head of the Charles for the second year in a row, defeating 37 other schools in one of the best-known regattas in the world. The women’s two boats took 2nd and 3rd in their event in another fantastic performance. Pretty awesome job by all ephs this fall!

#9 Comment By David On November 21, 2009 @ 2:40 pm

I should hesitate to comment since I coach 10 year-olds of middling talent rather than elite college athletes.

But . . . I would like to see the Ephs play a more serious schedule during the regular season. Finishing 19-0 is fine, but it sure would have been good to have seen TCNJ-quality opponents a couple of times earlier in the season. I only saw 25 minutes of the game, but, throughout, it seemed like the Ephs were just unused to playing against such high quality opponents. All the great passing plays they have, which worked marvelously all season, are not going to work nearly as well against the TCNJs of the world.

Suggestion: Schedule some Div I or II opponents (BC?, BU?) and drop some of the weaker Div III opponents next fall.

#10 Comment By Will Slack ’11 On November 21, 2009 @ 4:04 pm

Some of the comments I got via e-mail were very helpful, others were trollish. I think I’ll mention my e-mail again in the future.

#11 Comment By Will Slack ’11 On November 21, 2009 @ 4:13 pm

And I ALWAYS forget to remind people about the score. Apologies.

#12 Comment By Derek On November 21, 2009 @ 6:53 pm

David —
I would imagine DI schools would be reluctant to schedule us. It’s a lose-lose. If they win, well, it doesn’t really count for them and they are supposed to. If they lose, well, that’s not good. And with a lot of Willaims teams (in soccer and other sports) there is a good chance they’d lose.
I also wonder how much of Williams’ scheduling is based on tradition. In other words, we play the same x number of noncon teams every year, they pencil it in, we pencil it in, and it might mean very few other slots are available.
That said: A tough noncon schedule is always good assuming you are going to be good. And that’s another factor. Great to be a potential Final Four team playing dartmouth. Not so good to be middling in NESCAC and facing them in Hanover.

Will —
I broadcast the games on radio for our basketball team, and so I empathize with you. No one is ever satisfied — if you’re a total homer it sounds like amateur hour, and someone will complain. If you’re at all critical, people will complain. And everybody thinks they can do it better. They can’t. It’s really hard. Our games are on broadcast radio, so I also feel a tug between the institution, which would like a certain kind of boosterish broadcast, and the larger community, which expects professionalism. It’s going to be my 6th year this season and I still fear that midgame someone is going to come and yank the mic from my hands.

You are doing God’s work, my son.

dcat

#13 Comment By PTC On November 21, 2009 @ 11:05 pm

would imagine DI schools would be reluctant to schedule us. It’s a lose-lose. If they win, well, it doesn’t really count for them and they are supposed to. If they lose, well, that’s not good. And with a lot of Willaims teams (in soccer and other sports) there is a good chance they’d lose.

Derek- Williams has good even great Division 3 teams, but the chances of them beating a solid or even average D1 squad in any sport are very very slim. It is not the same league. A national champion D3 team is not even close to the same level as most average D1 teams… there is a huge difference between D1 and D3 athletics in college. The athletes in D1 are much bigger and stronger. They have full ride scholarships… in a lot of programs, multiple members of the team will go pro or compete for olympic/ world championship spots every year.

The idea that the Eph women could take on a team like Boston University in soccer is a stretch at best.

Name some other sports you think that Ephs could compete against decent or even average D1 teams? Football? Wrestling? Vollyball? Hockey? Field Hockey? Basketball? Track? Softball? Baseball?

It is not the same league.

#14 Comment By Derek On November 21, 2009 @ 11:51 pm

PTC-
Um, you’re butt naked wrong on this one. The year Williams won the national championship in basketball they beat Holy Cross. That year I believe Holy Cross won the Patriot League, so Williams beat a damned good DI school. A few years before that Williams almost took out Davidson at Davidson. These are just memories off the top of my head.
Williams literally beats DI schools in track and cross country all the time. There have been several years when Williams has placed in the top 5 at the All New England meet, finishing second at least once (my senior year). Seriously — in track it happens all the time. Every time Williams goes to a meet with DI schools we beat some of them.
All the way back in the halcyon days of October 2009 (though I remember them like they were last month) a little team from a college in Williamstown, Massachusetts went to the New England cross country championships. Because those long gone days had such shoddy record keeping we cannot know with certainty what happened. But legend has it that those young men finished 8th. Rumor further has it that in 9th came Dartmouth College. In 10th a little Catholic School called “Boston College.” In 13th? Brown. In 15th, your indomitable Boston University Terriers (“a stretch at best”). 19th, Vermont. 21st, Northeastern. Getting the picture? All those schools have something in common.
A huge percentage of Williams athletes were recruited by DI programs. I was one of them, and I was hardly alone on my track team.
Anyway, you were saying something about “it’s not the same league”? Please, do go on with your little lecture about what Williams cannot possibly do. I’m learning so much!

dcat

#15 Comment By frank uible On November 22, 2009 @ 12:29 am

And there are many other examples – for instance, last spring Williams defeated Fordham in baseball, every winter several DI colleges in skiiing and every spring several DI colleges in women’s crew. Every winter Williams defeats several major colleges in men’s and women’s squash (there being no DI in squash since squash is not an NCAA sanctioned sport).

#16 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 7:00 am

Dcat- Thanks for the historical data… no doubt, there are exceptions to what I posted.

New England tends to be a pretty weak league for a lot male of D1 sports, except Hockey. Most of the teams are below average on the mens side.

BU has a pretty good female D1 soccer team, and that was what was being suggested.

I still think you guys are dreaming if you think Williams could add decent D1 schools to their sports schedules and hold their own. You guys could start with the ivies that are close enough to play I suppose… Wrestle Harvard, Cornell, Princeton- Play football against Yale/ Harvard- Hockey against Harvard… even the ivies have a hard time breaking out in the top 20 in any of the “bigger” American sports (Football, Basketball, Baseball, Wrestling, Hockey) I am just saying.

I don’t know fellas, I think the notion that Williams can honestly compete at the D1 level on any kind of a consistent basis in any major sport, including womens soccer, field hockey etc, is a pretty big stretch.

#17 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 7:04 am

Now in the case of this specific womens soccer team, Kane is right. You are only as good as your competition. They could enter some open tournament play if that exists, but that would mean a road show and support for that from the Academics side of the house… they would improve dramatically if they stepped up to D1 level, no doubt about that.

#18 Comment By jeffz On November 22, 2009 @ 7:16 am

First, PTC, you are engaging in a little goal-post shifting here. Obviously Williams couldn’t be an average D-I team in a large number of sports; if that were the case, they wouldn’t be in D-III. But especially in individual sports like men’s and women’s tennis, men’s and women’s cross country and track and field, men’s and women’s swimming and diving, they could, year in and year out, beat a healthy percentage of D-I schools. They would also acquit themselves quite nicely most years in certain team sports, though obviously they would get killed by the better programs (but then again, so would most D-I schools!): men’s and women’s soccer, men’s hoops when men’s hoops was at its peek in the last 90’s and mid-2000’s, perhaps a few others. as already noted, certain sports, Williams already does compete with D-I schools and regularly fairs quite well: skiing, crew, the running sports, swimming, squash, etc.

Football, ice hockey, and several others would get slaughtered by virtually any D-I school due to the physical and recruiting disadvantages. But the point is, in a substantial body of Williams’ sports teams, they could be a more-than-credible D-I program if they wanted.

As for DK’s original point, it is tougher than he thinks. As others have stated, while I believe they do sometimes scrimmage against ivy league schools, there is only downside for an ivy league or other top northeastern program playing a regular season game against Williams. (HOly Cross men’s hoops was definitely embarassed when they lost at home to a non-scholarship program; the odds of them EVER scheduling a NESCAC school again are zero). Williams does play all the top D-3 programs in the new england region most years; and travel budgets and academic schedules aren’t really designed for a lot of long out of region trips. And that is assuming fellow top-10 programs would even want to play Williams in the regular season, and have room for them in their schedule. In all events, given the depth of the women’s roster, they effectively get to practice against another top notch team day-in, day-out.

#19 Comment By frank uible On November 22, 2009 @ 7:18 am

Why should Williams’ losing 1-0 in the second round of DIII women’s soccer NCAA playoffs provoke any severe or widespread changes in scheduling? An overreaction, the likes of which tends to lead to an unbalanced athletics program?

#20 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 7:19 am

Let’s use Wrestling as an example, since Williams now has a top 10 D3 Wrestling program and you can stack the althletes up by weight class- and in this one case they have to be the same size… Williams has a top 10 D3 Squad. The notion that they could compete with a D1 top 50… I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think Williams would be shut out by any good D1 team.

Williams V Cornell (a good D1 program)

I do not see a single weight class where Williams wins. My guess is that they get pinned in just about every bout. This is in a sport where the size advantage is not there.

#21 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 7:31 am

Jeffz- Womens soccer is what is being mentioned… how far do you think Williams would get in D1 womens soccer? BU is specifically mentioned… I know Williams, and I went to BU… there may be some strange year where BU is particularly weak and Williams gives them a game, but I was friends with a lot of the female athletes at BU, and let me just say- they are big strong women. The size advantage alone would be a huge hurdle.

Wrestling is a good sport to analyze for this D1 D3 comparison:

1. You can do analysis by weight class, and all athletes are the same size.
2. Williams has a top 10 program
3. It is a larger sport, not an outlier.

Again… I do not see Williams competing with a team like Cornell, or any other good even average D1 squad.

#22 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 7:37 am

Jeff- I am trying to figure out where you all think the goal posts are actually. Which sports, specifically, do you guys think Williams could consistently compete with D1 teams enough to warrant a schedule that affords playing in that league?

#23 Comment By jeffz On November 22, 2009 @ 7:53 am

PTC, no one is advocating Williams going to a D-I schedule, or even playing multiple D-I sports in any given sport. Here is what you said:

“but the chances of them beating a solid or even average D1 squad in any sport are very very slim.”

This is factually incorrect and has been demonstrated to be false in at least the following sports, where it has actually happened: men’s and women’s swimming, men’s and women’s track and field, men’s and women’s cross country, men’s basketball (in the Ephs’ stronger years), men’s and women’s crew, men’s and women’s soccer (again, in the Ephs’ stronger years in each — and if you are talking size and strength, check the size and strength of the Ephs’ men’s soccer team sometime …), and I’m not even counting the sports Williams is actually D-I in already (squash and skiing). May be a few others as well … there is a big difference between what you said before, which was demonstrably false, and claiming that we are looking for Williams to consistently compete with D-I teams, which NO ONE HERE IS.

#24 Comment By jeffz On November 22, 2009 @ 7:56 am

And Frank, good point (and it was the third round, btw). Williams in the last three years has reached the sweet 16 where they lost in a flukey game that they would have won 98/100 if replayed, then made the FINAL FOUR, then barely lost in a fairly even game in the sweet 16 to a very talented team, with one of the best coaches in the country (multiple national titles won), and it took one of the best saves you will ever see at any college level to take the Ephs down … no evidence that the result would be any different even if Williams’ radically revamped its scheduling philosophy, at the cost of traditional regional rivalries, extra travel, and more academic burdens.

#25 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:05 am

Jeffz- Ok. I just wanted to make sure there was a reality check on what was being stated. I am not familiar with a lot of the smaller sports.

I can tell you from my experience as a D1 varsity Wrestler… a larger sport, that there is a massive difference between D1 and D3, at least in Wrestling… even though the size advantage is not there.

#26 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:11 am

So- You think mens/ womens soccer can compete with a good D1 program (top 10)? Is that true? Good on them if it is.

#27 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 8:23 am

No. I think that the chances of them beating a “solid” D-I team are better than “very, very slim” (And really, that is most applicable to individual sports like cross country, where Williams HAS beaten “solid” — NOT top ten — D-I programs).

#28 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:39 am

Jeffz-
Good deal.

BU womens soccer is pretty decent (average)… they compete against nationally ranked teams all the time… that was the specific sport and program mentioned by David. Maybe Williams can play them in a scrimmage or something? I just wanted to make sure no one here had dilusions of the female ephs defeating UCLA.

Soccer is a pretty large sport for females. Remember- D1 teams need to recruit hard for such programs to stay in line with title IX. You may find a significant difference between male and female athletic programs in some of the “smaller” sports because of this. The opportunity for scholarships in some of the less popular male sports for women is huge because of football and wrestling… a lot more recruiting of female athletes, and more depth than might be anticipated…

#29 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:49 am

Here is a quick snapshot of who the lady Ephs would play if they were to take on BU in womens soccer.

http://www.goterriers.com/sports/w-soccer/bost-w-soccer-body.html

#30 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:51 am

http://bceagles.cstv.com/sports/w-soccer/bc-w-soccer-body.html

The Boston College program… the other team mentioned by David.

#31 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 8:55 am

2009 Boston College
Women’s Soccer Schedule
Date Opponent Time/Location
AUGUST
Sat. 22 UCONN – Scrimmage W, 3-0
Fri. 28 Fairfield University -Youth night W, 5-0
SEPTEMBER
Wed. 2 Boston University -HS Spirit Night 7 p.m./Newton, MA
Fri. 4 at Brown 7 p.m./Providence, RI
Sun. 6 Holy Cross – Camper Reunion Day 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Fri. 11 Marist 4 p.m./Newton, MA
Sun. 13 Long Beach State – Meet and Greet 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Fri. 18 Harvard – Gold Game – ALS 7 p.m./Newton, MA
Sun. 20 CCSU 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Thu. 24 at Miami 7:30 p.m./Coral Gables, FL
Sun. 27 at Florida State University 1 p.m./Tallahassee, FL
OCTOBER
Thu.1 University of North Carolina 7 p.m./Newton, MA
Sun.4 North Carolina State 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Sun. 11 University of Virginia – Student Spirit Day 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Thu. 15 at Maryland 7 p.m./College Park, MD
Sun. 18 at Virginia Tech 1 p.m./Blacksburg, VA
Sun. 25 at Clemson 1 p.m./Clemson, SC
Thu. 29 Duke 7 p.m./Newton, MA
NOVEMBER
Sun.1 Wake Forest University 1 p.m./Newton, MA
Wed. 4 at ACC Quarterfinals # TBA/Cary, NC
Fri. 6 at ACC Semifinals # TBA/Cary, NC
Sun. 8 at ACC Championship Game # TBA/Cary, NC
Fri-Sun. 13-15 TBA^ NCAA Tournament – Rnds. 1-2 TBA/TBA
Fri.-Sun. 20-22 TBA^ NCAA Tournament – Rnd. 3 TBA/TBA
Fri.-Sun 27-29 TBA^ NCAA Tournament – Quarters TBA/TBA
DECEMBER
Fri.-Sun. 4 & 6 TBA+ College Cup TBA/College Station, TX

BC is a good team… if the female Ephs could hang with them it would be a real accomplishment.

#32 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 9:12 am

Jeffz- By the way, BC is a top ten program, and David is suggesting that Williams plays them. That is what caused me to make my comment… but if the female Eph soccer program can truly compete against BC, good on them.

I was wrong about the smaller sports… which I was not really considering when I made my broad brush post. I stand humbly corrected. Now, what about Eph women V BC in soccer.. do you think they can compete at that level?

#33 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 9:52 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-L_jv5ikss

This is the level we are discussing… just so everyone has a good picture of the level that David is suggesting.

#34 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 10:15 am

PTC —
You were completely off. You were wrong. Wholly and completely. And for you now to claim you were actually saying something else is ruthlessly dishonest. Here are some of the words you used:

“the chances of them beating a solid or even average D1 squad in any sport are very very slim.”

This has been shown to be completely fucking wrong. Completely and totally.

“It is not the same league.”

Again — completely wrong. You’re embarrassing yourself.

“A national champion D3 team is not even close to the same level as most average D1 teams…”

Demonstrably wrong. It is clear that you in fact have no idea about just ow thin a line there is between DIII and DI athletics in so many ways. This is why since 1989 Williams has sent at least four people on to get at least a cup of coffee in the NFL, more than many DI programs. (More, for example, than my MAC PhD school.)

“there is a huge difference between D1 and D3 athletics in college.”

No. There is not. Which is why so many Ephs were recruited by DI schools. I’ve coached at the DI level in track. You just don’t know what you are talking about.

“The athletes in D1 are much bigger and stronger.”

Ethan Brooks. Game, set match.

“They have full ride scholarships…”

Not always true.

“in a lot of programs, multiple members of the team will go pro or compete for olympic/ world championship spots every year.”

There are 300+ DI athletic programs. You are trying to turn the argument into one pitting Williams against LSU.

“The idea that the Eph women could take on a team like Boston University in soccer is a stretch at best.”

Possibly. Possibly not. But this is what’s known as “cherry picking.”

“Name some other sports you think that Ephs could compete against decent or even average D1 teams? Football? Wrestling? Vollyball? Hockey? Field Hockey? Basketball? Track? Softball? Baseball?”

Most of these. As we’ve shown. And shown. And shown. And now you’re hitching your argument at wrestling — I am willing to bet that in the last decade an Eph wrestler has met up with an beaten a DI wrestler. And just one example is all it would take.

“It is not the same league.”

Most people would be embarassed to make these sorts of cetegorical assertions, turn out to get throttled with facts, and then insist they are right.

dcat

#35 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 10:22 am

It appears Williams wrestling will face Princeton the first weekend in December. I guess our poor, pitiable boys are going to get throttled one and all.

dcat

#36 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:47 am

Derek- Princeton was dead last in their division last year…

http://www.eiwawrestling.net/2008/EIWA_Bracket.pdf

I do not see this contest on either schedule. My best guess is that that Princeton fields a JV squad if they do compete, which is why it is not denoted on the webpage.

Nothing against your guys at all Derek… the fact is, your best Wrestler, #2 in the nation D3, was a BU product who was an average wrestler with a .500 winning average in D1. It is not the same league. Not in Wrestling. Not even close. Those are the facts.

#37 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:04 am

And I never stated that a Williams wrestler could not beat a poor D1 opponent.. what I said is that Cornell, a good D1 program would blow Williams out of the water… chances are Williams would not win a single match. I am quite sure of that.

#38 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 11:11 am

PTC —
Wait — our best wrestler was .500 at DI? Um, dude, that redounds to my point, not to yours. He competed at the DI level. He won half his matches. When you say “those are facts,” you are so blinded by your arguments you clearly do not recognize that those facts show that Williams guys are capable of competing at the DI level. But more importantly, this is not a discussion solely of wrestling. And if it were, you’d be losing anyway. Oh — and the fact that princeton is last in the Ivies is absolutely irrelevant. You made a stupid argument, now you are trying to narrow it so much that it only includes wrestling, but even then only some schools in wrestling, and even then being .500 at the DI level is, for you, a sign of an inability to compete. Wrestling is your BEST arguemnt. And you are getting crushed in your best argument. It would be funny if I did not know that you thought you were tossing out real biting zingers.

So to reiterate: You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to college sports. Lots of people here clearly do. We are giving you facts (facts, such as “Williams’ #2 wrestler was a .500 wrestler at BU. Oh,w ait — you gave us that one. Sorry. Your bad argumentation is confusing me.) These facts refute totally the idea that Williams cannot compete against Division I schools and now you are narrowing the debate so much that it really ought to now just be a farce.

Please. Stop. You are descending to Ephling levels of denial at this stage.

dcat

#39 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 11:12 am

PTC — your last comment slipped in before mine. Now you are just lying. You said early on that Williams sports can not compete at the same level as DI sports. That’s waht you said. The idea that you were arguing all along only about Cornell wrestling or BU soccer is just plain dishonest.

dcat

#40 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:22 am

Derek- Now you are just inventing things… here is what I wrote in response to the suggestion that Williams play BC or BU in womens soccer-

Williams has good even great Division 3 teams, but the chances of them beating a solid or even average D1 squad in any sport are very very slim

Uh… that is what I wrote Derek. Here is what I wrote about Wrestling-

use Wrestling as an example, since Williams now has a top 10 D3 Wrestling program and you can stack the althletes up by weight class- and in this one case they have to be the same size… Williams has a top 10 D3 Squad. The notion that they could compete with a D1 top 50… I seriously doubt it. In fact, I think Williams would be shut out by any good D1 team

Now if you want to lower the bar to the worst team in the league… fine. I still think Williams would lose to Princeton… but they would win some matches- no doubt about it.

The thread is about womens soccer. Specific teams mentioned were BU and BC. If the Eph women are actually good enough to compete at that level good on them. I have my doubts. Those women are very big and very strong. BU is known for having a decent program being an extremely physical team. BC is one of the better teams in the nation this year.

#41 Comment By Will Slack ’11 On November 22, 2009 @ 11:22 am

Hold on folks. I don’t want to crosspost, but give me a minute to edit this comment with everything y’all should know about this, that I know. Had no idea it was such a subject of interest.

#42 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:33 am

Jeffz- Bloggers here are starting to make me think some folks at Williams believe that they can compete in D1 athletics… good god.

By the way Derek.. here is what you posted, specifically about female soccer:


I would imagine DI schools would be reluctant to schedule us. It’s a lose-lose. If they win, well, it doesn’t really count for them and they are supposed to. If they lose, well, that’s not good. And with a lot of Willaims teams (in soccer and other sports) there is a good chance they’d lose.

Will- if you have info that the famale soccer team can beat teams like BU and BC… good deal. Good on them. However, I have my doubts.

#43 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 11:37 am

PTC —
Yes, that’s what you wrote. And what you wrote was completely wrong. Williams has beaten solid or average DI teams in a host of sports, as we’ve shown continuously on this thread. Your threadbare argument has been shown to be what it is. I already addressed this in post 34. You have tried to turn this into a post about Wrestling and one of your arguments is that one of our wrestlers had a .500 record at BU and that somehow that is an argument for your side.
We have track. We have basketball. We have cross country. We have softball. I was an athlete at Williams and I beat DI guys all the time on a team that beat DI teams all the time. And not just lousy teams. My senior year at New Englands we beat every DI team in New England save one. We beat UConn and Northeastern and BU and Dartmouth. Our basketball team beat an NCAA-tournament-regular Holy Cross team. Last fucking month our cross country team beat a host of DI teams. Jesus, PTC. When are you going to quit? Your initial assertion was off by orders of magnitude and now you are trying to claim that this was really about whether Williams could beat a still largely undefined swath of wrestling teams and you are relying on the post being about soccer even though YOU introduced all of the other sports. It’s deeply dishonest. And even in its dishonesty its still wrong. Just wrong. It’s like we’re arguing about whether 2+2 equals 4, you are insisting it equals 72, and then you are giving evidence saying that it equals the average of 3 and 5 and so you’re right, and in any case we’re really arguing about whether or not addition is math.
Williams can compete in many sports against many DI teams. It is a dominant athletic program that competes at the DIII level because of our mission. That mission is one none of us want to forsake. But every so often it is nice to go up against the Big Boys and to show that those gaps between DI and DIII that you think are so enormous in fact are not. And we do so by winning, sometimes against good teams. These are facts. No matter how much you insist that they are not. No matter how much you move the goal lines. No matter how often you try to change the terms of debate.

dcat

#44 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 11:43 am

In more important news, men soccer elite eight match against cnu is webcast today at one. Cnu beat York earlier in the year so they are for real.

#45 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 11:44 am

PTC —
Once again we overlapped. Yes — there are Williams athletes who can compete at the DI level. You wrote what you just did as if it were out of mockery. But it happens every year. It happens in track. We have athletes who place at the DI meet in track and cross country all the time. We have had Williams athletes win the DI New Englands. We have had professional soccer and football players.

And PTC — yes, that is what I wrote. You clearly did not read it closely. And in that block quotation I specifically wrote “in soccer and other sports”. And I was right. We beat DI teams. We have in the past and we will again. I mean, how much more clear can I be? This discussion run BEGAN with soccer and I immediately extended it out to other sports, and then you went with that and ran through a whole list of sports in which you asserted that Williams could not compete, at which point myriad counterexamples have been put forward.
PTC — you are wrong. It’s as simple as that. You’ve been shown wrong by a host of people here. And rather than just concede you change the terms of the discussion, wiullfully misrepresent others, and try in your hamhanded way to mock people who are making unobjectionable points backed by the evidence.

dcat

#46 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:47 am

Dcat- Lol. Williams can win against low ranked D1 colleges in some outlier sports.. I never claimed they could not. I was wrong about some of the outlier mid level D1 competition… I admit it. You are acting like Williams can consistently beat good D1 schools in more popular sports. Williams cannot.

Williams Basketball can beat a good D1 squad? Really? I would be shocked to see that. I’ll look for them in the final four this year. Lol.

#47 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:51 am

Maybe we can schedule a football game too.. Ohio State v Williams… and then, this winter… Williams V BU in Hockey, and they can take on Iowa in Wrestling. I am just not seeing it folks. Sorry.

#48 Comment By Will Slack ’11 On November 22, 2009 @ 11:53 am

Suggestion: Schedule some Div I or II opponents (BC?, BU?) and drop some of the weaker Div III opponents next fall.

That’s simply not going to happen, and other people have articulated why. It’s not of our choice.

@PTC: I have a cousin who was recruited to play at DI schools, but ended up going D3 so that her life wouldn’t be so totally consumed by soccer/some other reasons. There’s overlap between the players, and I have no doubt that our squad could take on a decent DI squad and win, at least some of the time. BUT, I think there’s something to be said for how W-SOC players at Williams actually do other stuff outside of sports, such as Lehman Council, RASAN, Tutoring, a small business, and staying on top of academics, which isn’t easy here. I would guess that DI schools have a much more intensive practice schedule, that would give them a general edge. However, this is all guesswork.

You know, you undermine your own case when your examples are the best D1 schools in a given area – there are other teams that don’t get nationally recognized, you know – someone has to have a losing record each year.

Williams does play all the top D-3 programs in the new england region most years; and travel budgets and academic schedules aren’t really designed for a lot of long out of region trips. And that is assuming fellow top-10 programs would even want to play Williams in the regular season, and have room for them in their schedule. In all events, given the depth of the women’s roster, they effectively get to practice against another top notch team day-in, day-out.

Jeff is right, but there’s another detail – our program has a starting date for official practices and whatnot two weeks later than most other schools, so we can’t schedule scrimmages against teams in the way some people have suggested. Furthermore, this means that any games played against far-away teams would have to played on a weekday or Sunday, which doesn’t work academically.

Also, our season’s schedule IS one of the toughest. Having watched all of those games, and looked at schedules for some of other teams in the country, I can tell you that the NESCAC is a very difficult league to play in, and that we played a lot of outstanding talent. Sometimes the scores don’t reflect that – many times, a 4-0 game can end up that way because the defense of the opponents gets a little lazy at the end of a 1-0 game.

It’s not as if all of the plays that worked beautifully during the season suddenly started to fail – that just wasn’t the case. TCNJ wasn’t that much better as a team than many of the teams we’ve faced – I would say that one difference is that the Ephs could win a higher percentage of one-on-ones in other games, but that’s no reason to go far far away. Our schedule is plenty tough.

#49 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 12:07 pm

Will- I agree. Look at the schedule for womens soccer side by side with that of BC. It is just not the same league. Soccer is one of the bigger female sports. I knew those players when I was at BU, they were huge. I mean really big strong fast women. The season is non stop.. they are on full athletic scholarships. What I see is “no competition”, which is fine.

I used Wrestling because it was what I did in college. Also, there is no huge size differential because of weight classes.

I can tell you that a decent Wrestling D1 program has guys winning or losing by a few points to most D1 All Americans, and that a D1 all American Wrestler would blow most D3 National Champions out of the water in a dual. I do not see Williams being able to compete with Princeton in a dual meet, and Princeton is the worst team in their league. Any of the mid grade teams would blow Williams out of the water. Nothing agianst Williams… it is a great school, with some of the best D3 athletics in the nation… but it is not D1. I hope Williams wins the nationals in Wrestling this year- but to think that places them on a par to compete at the D1 level is not realistic.

Anyhow will, thanks for posting… now my back to my morning measuring contest with Derek… lol.

#50 Comment By frank uible On November 22, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

In defense of Williams’ current best wrestler, he was a .500 wrestler at BU during the very first part of his freshman year there. He is now a junior – 2 years older – and therefore projects to be a significantly better wrestler now than he was then. Additionally Williams has 2 or 3 other current wrestlers who might beat (and certainly would compete well against) their weight class counterparts at a decent DI wrestling college on a given day depending on matchups.

#51 Comment By 1980 On November 22, 2009 @ 12:16 pm

Soccer is one of the sports where there is virtually no difference between the top D3 teams and many D1 programs (the phrase “the top D3” programs is key here – there is a huge difference between middle of the road D3 programs and D1). Nearly all of the top players on the Williams team were recruited by good D1 teams.

#52 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 12:22 pm

Frank- They would win in some individual matches against a mid level D1 squad. I agree. I doubt they would win a single match against any top 10 team… unless there was an odd match up, and Malo Wrestled a really weak weight class in the program. I matched Cornell side by side with Williams… its a pin fest.

I would guess that Williams could win some individual matches against BU, depending on the year- but in general D3 athletics are much stronger in New England than D1 when it comes to national rankings- at least for popular sports like Wrestling. Again- I match Williams against any decent D1 squad, and I see a shutout, or damn close to one.

I am sure Malo will beat some decent D1 guys in open tournaments just like he did when he was at BU… but remember- he is #2 in the nation in D3… he would have a hard time placing in the top 8 in D1, and he is the second best Wrestler in Williams’ history, behind Bob Koster.

#53 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 12:30 pm

1980- Really? I am having a hard time believing that programs that offer full athletic scholarships and can choose from a much larger pool of players because of academic standards would get beaten by D3 teams as much as you think… but I could be wrong.

So- You think the female Ephs could beat BU and BC?

#54 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 12:32 pm

I am really enjoying this sports banter by the way… makes me feel very collegiate and brings out the youth in me.

#55 Comment By frank uible On November 22, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

In 2005 Williams’ Tom Prairie finished 2nd at the NCAA DIII wrestling championships, making him arguably equivalent in quality to Williams’ current best wrestler.

#56 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 7:35 pm

PTC —
Jesus Christ. Williams beat Holy Cross in a year when Holy Cross won the Patriot League and went to the NCAA tournament. But more importantly, I never said Williams could do any of the things you attributed me as saying. I simply said that Williams athletes can compete against DI athletes and sometimes can win. That is what I have said, it is what I have maintained, and it is true. And piss off for calling track and cross country and swimming “outlier sports,” especially when your favorite counterexample here, w restling, is lower profile than track is. If your argument now is something different from what it once was, please admit it. And of course it is. This is a Kane-esque shifting of goal posts. But don’t suddenly dismiss track given that when you posed your seemingly damning question about whether Williams could beat DI teams you included track. Now that you know that track regularly beats good DI schools, it’s an outlier sport.
I’ve told you time and time again that Williams athletes are almost universally also recruited elsewhere — Patriot League or the Ivies or elsewhere, or by DII (and the difference between DII and DIII really is negligible and oftentimes simply has to do with region of the country). I was recruited by several Ivies, by Duke and Davidson, as well as by schools like UNH. For a host of reasons related to sports, academics, and general feel, I chose Williams. The idea that you’d reduce Williams athletes merely to being DIII as if there are no other factors involved is not only completely ignorant, it’s frankly growing a bit dickish on your part.
You also keep harping on this scholarship situation — you’re aware that no college soccer team in the country is full of athletes on full scholarship, right? You’re aware that for men’s DI soccer the max is 9.9 scholarships total, for women 12 and that lots of programs don’t approach their max. Right? I mean, when you say these things you’re aware that the Ivies offer no athletic scholarships, right? And that with Williams’ financial aid many athletes would pay less to go to Williams than to get a partial scholarship at a typical DI program?
And for the love of fuck, can you stop harping on this BC/BU thing? Dave said it in an aside and literally no one else here is sticking to those two examples. Would Williams ever beat BC? Likely not. Might they beat Central Connecticut or Stony Brook? Ever? Possibly. And since most of us arguing for the fact of Williams’ success against real DI teams, why on earth are we harping on a hypothetical? Williams has beaten DI teams in a host of sports. Williams in the future will beat DI teams in a host of sports. That’s the argument, and it’s true, no matter how much you try to diminish those of us actually associated with Williams athletics, and especially those of us who were on teams that actually beat DI teams.

dcat

In any case, the facts are that in just about every sport Williams has beaten DI competition, and in individual sports, our teams and individual athletes have beaten them. I’ve been saying that from the beginning and I say it now, and I’ve been right from the outset. I’m sure PTC now has a new argument and a new standard, as he has in just about every one of his comments thus far.

#57 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:01 pm

Derek-

I think you are just nuts to continue this argument.

I never said that Ephs could not beat D1 athletes… ever. I have consistently said that average D1 teams would beat Eph squads almost all the time. That is true, in just about every sport. Sorry… D3 is not D1, no matter how many times you wish it or cite examples of times where Ephs have beaten less than poor D1 teams or the few times they have managed to beat average (not great) D1 teams once in a while or in a smaller sport.

It is not a slam… and I am not trying to be a dick about it… D1 athletics are much better than D3 athletics. It is not the same league… period. There is a reason there are divisions in sports.. and that is because it would not be fair to match D1 against D3.

You and David are suggesting that the female soccer team can take on some of the best D1 programs in the country… if they can, great- but again, I seriously doubt it.

#58 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:03 pm

ps- The ephs lost to Princeton in Wrestling last year… and Princeton had one of the worst teams in the country.. while Williams was 10th in the nation- Derek- it is just not the same league- sorry.

#59 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:07 pm

PTC, I think the reason you have infuriated DCat (and others) so much is that after essentially claiming that it would be nearly impossible for a D3 team to beat ANY D1 team in virtually any sport (go back and reread your first few posts, seriously) you are now trying to say, hey, Williams probably couldn’t beat Ohio State if they played in football. Well, duh, they’d lose by 80, at least.

Let’s just all agree that (a) in many of its stronger athletics programs (outside of football, but including almost every individual sport, plus soccer and several other team sports), Williams would be very competitive with a substantial chunk of D-1 programs, but (b) Williams couldn’t hope to be competitive with a D-1 CONTENDER in ANY of its sports programs. You seem to now have agreed to that, but that is not at ALL what you claimed at the start of this discussion.

#60 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:09 pm

PTC, even granting you wrestling, that leave men’s and women’s crew, men’s and women’s tennis, men’s and women’s swimming, men’s and women’s track, and men’s and women’s cross country, all sports in which Williams routinely beats D-I programs, and in which, if it so chose, Williams could easily field a credible (again, not CONTENDING) D-1 program. Those are the facts, and they are completely different from what you originally thought. No big deal, but not sure why you are persisting with this.

#61 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 10:21 pm

PTC —
Dammit, I never said any such thing. I never said Williams could or should take on those teams. Never. Not once. Look back — cite when I did, please. You’ve hinged WAY too much of your article on this strawman about BC and BU women’s soccer.

But YOU did write: “the chances of them [Williams] beating a solid or even average D1 squad in any sport are very very slim.”

This was just wrong.

And it is the entire foundation of our discussion. I named a bunch of solid/average teams that Williams has beaten. Williams beat a good Holy Cross team in basketball. We have beaten every New England DI team at the All New England meet in track. Ditto cross country. So the odds are not “very very slim” because we do this regularly. So you added the “minor sport” caveat even though YOU asked about these minor sports, and even though in the quotation above you quite clearly say “in any sport.” Not “in sports I think are imnportant even though I’ll later hinge part of my argument on wrestling.” Not “in sports that will allow me to cherrypick my data.” But: “in any sport.”

Why can’t you just say something like the following:

Williams has a lot of great athletes, many of whom could play DI but many others of whom would have a hard time competing at that level. Williams is occasionally able to compete against DI programs, as its history has shown, but of course no one confuses it with LSU, or even Boston University. Williams could probably be a decent member of, say, the Patriot Conference, a perfectly respectable but by no means athletically elite conference, in several sports, especially in sports like track and cross country and swimming. But Williams would not be able to dominate like it does now, and Williams would inevitably change its emphasis as a consequence.

Is this really that unreasonable? Because it strikes me as being true, it strikes me as being accurate, it strikes me as recognizing the school’s modicum of success in stepping up a level every so often, and it strikes me as acknowledging that maybe your haste in dismissing the ability of Williams to compete against better competition was rash and as a result you’ve been trying to back away from it while somehow upping the ante the whole time while several of us — jeffz and myself — have been consistent across the board precisely because we never backed ourselves into untenable absolutes (“in any sport” “very very slim”).

dcat

#62 Comment By Derek On November 22, 2009 @ 10:22 pm

jeffz and I just overlapped. What he said.

dcat

#63 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

Jeffz- Because what was suggested is that Williams can compete with average even good programs in most sports.. and you guys need to drop the crack pipe if you believe that.

BU and BC womens soccer was specifically mentioned… and then derek commented that they would not play because they “would most likely lose (to Williams)”- I doubt that. He has since corrected himself…. and you guys keep harping on performances against sub average teams like it gives you some claim that Williams can compete in D1… it is nuts. You guys would get killed in D1. There is nothing wrong with that- you are a D3 school for gods sake- with huge academic standards. Great D3 athletics… but please, stop pretending beating a third rate new england squad in track gives you the right to proclaim that you would go anywhere in D1 college athletics. You would not.

#64 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:32 pm

PTC, please stop claiming that Williams can not compete with Division III teams. Williams performs very well in Division III. Oh, you never said that? Now you see how it feels. There is really no point continuing to argue with someone who either willfully misrepresents, or simply ignores, the course of the argument. I am not going to keep repeating myself endlessly. Your original contention, which is what this entire thread was about, has been proven 100 percent dead wrong. This is a FACT: a substantial number of Williams sports are competitive with a good number of D-I schools. Period, end of story. No one is claiming we’d compete for a national title in D-I, in any sport. Sheesh. I am not going to start rebutting hypothetical arguments that no one is actually asserting. I am done wasting my time with you on this.

#65 Comment By David On November 22, 2009 @ 10:35 pm

I apologize for bringing up such a contentious topic. I’ll go back to blogging about race, affirmative action, athletic admissions, ideological diversity and other safe subjects on Monday.

#66 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:38 pm

http://www.ustfccca.org/featured/arkansas-men-ranked-no-1

Where do you guys think you break out in track, no Divisions… top 50 in the country? Top 25? I have to ask… you keep telling me how you can compete with D1 in that sport.

Please list Williams teams that you think break out in the top 100 in the country… and where they would break out exactly… I am curious at this point… just how badly you guys have lost your minds?

#67 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:40 pm

PTC, stop being a jackass and carefully reread the false claims you made in the thread, and the specific ways in which those claims were debunked. I am not sure how to make it any clearer to you than I already have. Just retract the incorrect claim you made in comment 13, which is all DCat and I were responding to, and then we are done. OK?

#68 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:41 pm

David- Nothing contentious about it. This is fun. I am waiting for Jeff and Derek to respond to my query…

With no divisions- top 100 Williams sports programs, and exactly where they think they would break out if there was no D2 or D3…. just how good do you guys really think you are? Lay it out there! Go big, or stay home!

#69 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:42 pm

#70 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:42 pm

Eph soccer… top 20? What about Wrestling.. top 50? Track… top 50? Just curious how good you guys think you really are.

#71 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:44 pm

They beat BC in swimming… yes… a great team. How good is the swim team nationally jeffz- top 50? Top 25?

#72 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:46 pm

top 100?

#73 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

I have no idea, nor do you, nor do I care.

#74 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:48 pm

Seriously… you guys are the ones claiming you beat average D1 programs all the time… so give me where you fall out… this may be a matter of what we are calling average… say, 100th in the nation? 50th in the nation? 25th? Just curious.

Eph football is what… 30th in the nation, no divisions?

#75 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 10:51 pm

Can you guys beat Stanford, currently ranked at the bottom of the national rankings… 25th in track? OK state?

#76 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:52 pm

PTC, why don’t YOU answer the ONLY question that we ever addressed in the first place. Do you STILL believe that the chance of ANY Williams team beating ANY solid or average D-I team in ANY sport is very, very, slim? Because that was YOUR claim, and that is the only claim I called bullshit on. Because it is.

#77 Comment By JeffZ On November 22, 2009 @ 10:56 pm

By the way, PTC, I gather you think that the 80 percent of D-I schools who, in any given sport, are never ranked and are never credible contenders, nationally, should all drop to D-III? Because that seems to be your argument … FOR THE FIFTIETH TIME NO ONE HAS CLAIMED THAT WILLIAMS COULD CONTEND IN ANY DIVISION ONE SPORT. WE’VE ONLY CLAIMED THAT MANY WILLIAMS SPORTS COULD BE CREDIBLE DIVISION I PROGRAMS IF THEY WANTED TO, CREDIBLE MEANING, COMPETITIVE WITH A FAIR PERCENTAGE OF OTHER D-I PROGRAMS. IS THIS GETTING THROUGH? IS ANYONE HOME?

#78 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:02 pm

@PTC: Fordham finished second in the Atlantic-10. BC was 11th in the ACC. Almost the definition of average D-I teams.

Watch PTC explain that this doesn’t mean anything in 3… 2… 1…

#79 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:02 pm

Easy there Jeff.

#80 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:04 pm

I already answered that long ago in this thread Jeff. I already stated I was wrong about that in some sports perhaps…in fact- I “humbly apologized.”.. I still think most average D1 programs beat you guys in almost every sport… New England is skewed in a lot of sports… no doubt about that (I also already stated that)… but ok… if you guys think you can honestly compete with D1 programs because you beat Umass Amherst in track.. fine.

Now, I am asking you guys to drill it down for me. Where do you guys think Williams would fall out in the sports you are saying consistently beat average even good D1 squads. Top 100? Top 50? Top 20? Top 10?

#81 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:14 pm

if you guys think you can honestly compete with D1 programs because you beat Umass Amherst in track.. fine.

Wait, is UMass not a “real” D-I program the way Northern Virginia isn’t “real” Virginia? That would explain a lot.

By the way, the UMass soccer coach wouldn’t schedule us in soccer in a million years. Why? Because, as per the comment that started all this, “there is a good chance they’d lose.” The fact that we’re not as good as UCLA doesn’t change this fact.

#82 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:18 pm

bf- By your definition perhaps… we were ranked as high as 25th in the nation while I was at BU from time to time, 2nd in New England in D1.. we were average… not good by any stretch. The good teams would clean our clocks. We would have gotten beaten pretty badly by a lot of squads outside the conference, and competed within the top 25-100 teams in the nation.

There is normally a huge difference between a poor, average, and good team in D1… but I think perhaps you guys have a screwed perspective on this because of the draw you are getting from the region in some sports- which is why I am now asking you for your perspective nationally?

#83 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:21 pm

Actually.. we were talking about the lady ephs playing BU and BC… good teams… but ok.

One more time.. where exactly do you folks honestly think you fall out in your programs with no divisions on a national level?

#84 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:31 pm

1) The answer is different for every sport;

2) In every year;

3) And thus would take a lot of work to try to figure out;

4) Assuming that you thought it was an interesting question, which nobody does but you. It has almost nothing to do with what we’ve been arguing about.

By the way, if you’re now trying to claim that the whole point is that Williams couldn’t beat “good” D-I teams as opposed to “average” or “poor” teams, well, bless your heart.

#85 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:32 pm

Umass is not even ranked… not even a top 50 team. How about Harvard- can you guys beat them this year?

One last time.. leave behind the nuances of all this pointless rhetoric… lets cut to the chase… just exactly how good do you guys really think you are?

Where exactly do you guys think these teams fall out without divisions?

#86 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

There are 204 men’s D-I soccer teams. Ranked by RPI this season, Harvard is No. 8 and BC is No. 24. Three other Ivies in the Top 50.

Here’s the list of teams b/t 91 and 120. This is, by definition, the average group of teams nationwide:

George Washington
Colgate
Fairfield
Sacramento St.
Northeastern
Coastal Caro.
Bradley
Cal St. Bakersfield
Fordham
Liberty
St. Francis (NY)
Virginia Tech
Winthrop
Binghamton
Cal Poly
Hartford
Columbia
Loyola (MD)
UC Davis
Santa Clara
Valparaiso
Rhode Island
Temple
Towson
Furman
Adelphi
Marquette
Appalachian St.
Eastern Ill.
UMBC

There are ACC, Big East, A-10 schools in there. Part of your problem is that you seem to be massively wrong about what constitutes an “average” D-I program.

#87 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

You guys are calling poor programs average… not fair fellas. You guys are calling some of the worst programs in the nation… average.. not fair at all.

So… you played lax right ben… which D1 teams would have crushed you… which would have been a game… out of curiosity?

#88 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:43 pm

PTC, those are the middle teams in the country. They are average. What on earth are you talking about?

#89 Comment By bfleming On November 22, 2009 @ 11:44 pm

I didn’t play lacrosse.

#90 Comment By JG On November 22, 2009 @ 11:45 pm

I’m not talented enough to paste the picture itself in the comment, so you’ll have to follow the link.

#91 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:47 pm

JG- sports talk amongst boys you see…. nothing to see here, literally.

Ben- so… where do you think the soccer team falls this year.. no divisions?

#92 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

Ben- I am trying to figure out how good you guys think you are… why not throw it out there… if you guys think you are better than average D1 squads in a lot of sports.. how much better? Do you think you guys are in the top 25 in the country in a lot of sports?

#93 Comment By JG On November 22, 2009 @ 11:51 pm

@PTC: I probably know as much about college football as any male Eph out there, I just don’t feel the need to whip it out and measure over a POINTLESS as hell argument on a blog for nerds.

#94 Comment By PTC On November 22, 2009 @ 11:56 pm

JG- Nerd athletes… some of the best in the nation. Able to beat D1 programs in the blink of an eye!

#95 Comment By aparent On November 23, 2009 @ 4:23 am

Witnessing the moving of goal posts, from whomever, never ceases to be annoying — especially when the mover purposely makes himself so.

#96 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 6:34 am

Aparent- At this point, I am trying to figure out how good these guys think the programs are…

Lets just say… in most sports, Williams is in the top 100 in the nation, and good enough to beat average Division 1 and Divisions 2 teams on a fairly regular basis…. you guys win the argument. I concede.

#97 Comment By JeffZ On November 23, 2009 @ 6:46 am

You’re missing the point PTC. Not one single person, other than you, made any claims about Williams’ relative standing among D-I schools, nor do any of us know. We already won the original argument, and you already conceded.

#98 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 7:01 am

jeffz- Where do you guys think you fall out again? “Better than average in D1” right? … I never conceded to that, until now.

#99 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 7:06 am

The other points I conceded in post #16… you guys keep saying you consistently beat average D1 teams in many sports… so, I now concede that too. That is when I used the word “decent”… which I do not concede at all. You guys win, you can beat some average teams. I admit it. I admitted it in post 16… and I still admit it now.

#100 Comment By JeffZ On November 23, 2009 @ 7:06 am

The only claims I (or any other poster on this thread, for that matter) have ever made about average is the one I will make right now: this thread has been a bigger than average waste of time for Ephblog, thanks to your refusal to actually read what anyone has written. Which is saying something …

#101 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 7:08 am

This would have been a cool conversation in the purple pub.. comes off a little obnoxious on paper…. this kind of sports banter. Next time, over beers perhaps.

#102 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 7:15 am

I read what you guys wrote… bloggers were flat out stating that you guys can beat D1 on a regular basis… and that D1 teams would “duck” Williams to avoid getting beaten by a D3 school “almost all of the time”. Bloggers were stating that “there is not much difference between D1 and D3 divisions in soccer”. Bloggers were suggesting Williams play BC in womens soccer… and that Williams would win.

Everything I stated above, is true. I was reading what you guys wrote jeff. I think I put a sanity check on that. Totally worth it, in my opinion… as a former D1 athlete.

#103 Comment By 1980 On November 23, 2009 @ 7:22 am

I did not say “there is not much difference between D1 and D3 divisions in soccer”. What I said is: “Soccer is one of the sports where there is virtually no difference between the top D3 teams and many D1 programs (the phrase “the top D3″ programs is key here – there is a huge difference between middle of the road D3 programs and D1)”.

And I stand by this statement. Have you watched Williams soccer? Seen a D1 soccer game recently? I have.

And I never said anything about Williams womens soccer beating BU or BC. I don’t know and honestly don’t care.

#104 Comment By Derek On November 23, 2009 @ 10:37 am

PTC —
Your rank dishonesty and selective quotations are annoying, which is why no one here is siding with you. (For example, who wrote that Williams would beat a DI school “almost all the time.” Is the courtesy of honesty that much to ask?) But Jesus, PTC: We do beat DI schools that we play on a “regular basis.” These are just facts. And so you are somehow turning it into a discussion of who we couldn’t beat, because the teams we have actually beat don’t count to you.

Pop quiz: Which baseball program is the winningest in college baseball by total program wins? Tick, tock, tick, tock. It’s Fordham. Who did Williams recently beat in besaball? Fordham. What is Williams’ all-time record against Fordham? It’s 3-0.

The track teams Williams beats qualify as decent. UConn won the All New England championships multiple times while I was at Williams. Yet we beat them in 1993, and that was not the only time. Northeastern, same thing. We have, at one time or other, beaten every single DI track team in New England. None of us have any idea how that would translate out to a national ranking, because such a national ranking system is monumentally stupid. But one of my Williams track teams got 2nd in the All New England championships. We beat everybody in New England but one team, all divisions. And yet you are trying to say that we beat no decent teams, not because we didn’t, but because even as you shift your goalposts constantly, you need to insist on somehow being right in one of the inane derivations you’ve made to denigrate Williams sports. We beat decent DI teams all the time in track, cross country, and other sports. And occasionally in a sport like baseball we can beat what by any measure we ought to have the, er, decency to call a “decent” team.

Because, you see, PTC, the problem we are having now is that not only to you continue to denigrate Williams athletes, you are now, in order to hold on to this tiny little bit of driftwood, insulting all of these other athletes at DI schools who don’t meet your as yet undefined and constantly shifting standard of what it qualifies for it to count that Williams beats the teams they consistently beat.

But even more annoying is your desire to have us create a fictive and ultimately meaningless list of rankings for sports that would have absolutely no basis and that is, most crucial to your just embarrassingly bad run of arguments, never going to happen and thus impossible to validate. And you are somehow using that fictive list to take the place of reality, which is that Williams does quite well against New England DI track teams, not in some fictional listmaking exercise, but every year, indoors and outdoors, in an actual meet conducted on an actual track. Who knows what that means? But we play championships while you wish we could get rid of all of this messiness and create a BCS for sports like track, that way guys like you can ignore what goes on on the playing fields and replace it with your own judgment.

dcat

#105 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 5:32 pm

Derek writes:

Pop quiz: Which baseball program is the winningest in college baseball by total program wins? Tick, tock, tick, tock. It’s Fordham. Who did Williams recently beat in besaball? Fordham. What is Williams’ all-time record against Fordham? It’s 3-0

For the record, Fordham is currently a less than .500 (W22-L32)team without a single nationally ranked club (top 50) on the schedule. They have not been a big time or even a good D1 team for decades…

This scene did not occur in California, Florida or Texas, places where college baseball is in the spotlight. It occurred on a cool afternoon in the Bronx, six subway stops away from Yankee Stadium. It happened at Fordham University, the humble home of the team that surprisingly has the most wins of any N.C.A.A. Division I baseball program.

And it is not close. Fordham has 4,010 wins; Texas is second with 3,117. Of course, Fordham had a huge head start since it began playing baseball 150 years ago, which was 36 seasons before Texas did and more than half a century before many other teams. Still, Fordham proudly relishes having more victories than elite programs like Stanford and Miami.

#106 Comment By Derek On November 23, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

So now Fordham, the team with the most wins in college baseball history, a team that had a winning record in its conference last year, does not qualify as a legitimate DI win either. And you say they have not been a good baseball team for decades (plural?) They went to the NCAA tournament in 1998 and have averaged 30 wins a year for the last four years.

And I’m not sure why you assert that top 50 = nationally ranked, since national rankings in baseball are on a top 25 basis. But more importantly, you say they played no nationally ranked teams. Really? The 2009 Fordham Rams did not play Virginia? Are you sure? And according to Baseball America’s rankings, Virginia was not a top 10 team last year? Are you certain that Virginia did not in fact finish the year ranked 5th in the country?

(Hint: Virginia finished 2009 as the #5 ranked team in Baseball America’s final ranking.)

So, Fordham baseball: According to renowned sportsologist PTC, you are not legitimate DI athletes, because the only legitimate DI athletes are those PTC deigns to tell us are DI athletes. And Williams baseballers? Sorry — that win does not count as a good DI win. Despite the most wins in college baseball history, despite finishing with a winning record in its conference, despite averaging 30 wins a year: Beating Fordham does not fit PTC’s model.

You are a piece of work, PTC. Doesn’t matter the evidence, you just keep prattling on, shifting the sands of your argument and then pretending those were the terms all along.

dcat

#107 Comment By Dick Swart On November 23, 2009 @ 6:40 pm

Lineup for Yesterday

F is for Fordham
And Frankie and Frisch;
I wish he were back
With the Giants, I wish.

— Ogden Nash, Sport magazine (January 1949)

#108 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 8:16 pm

Derek- Oh sure, they are legitimate… they are also a less than .500 team last year and not ranked. When was the last time they broke into the top 25 exactly?

#109 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 8:27 pm

You guys are starting to worry me with these standards… ranting and boasting about beating teams with average records in losing conferences… acting like that is some kind of a staple for claiming you can beat average even good D1 teams, in sports like baseball?? Basketball? Wrestling?.. Regularly?

Your delusions of grandeur are really quite entertaining. I wonder how many of the “good” teams you beat were exhibition and playing second string against you guys…? I have to wonder… because we used to field our JV against teams like Williams all the time…

#110 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 8:28 pm

and by the way… it would not matter if we lost.. because it is not the same league.

#111 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 8:42 pm

and that is not some kind of “slam” or some kind of “insult”- that is reality. Williams is a great school, with outstanding D3 athletics.. that happens to converge on the weakest D1 conferences in most sports… yes, Wrestling included. We were a .600 team with no all Americans, we never had any illusions that we were anything more than an average even below average level squad, that would be defeated by any big program, but able to compete with even dominate new england schools and most ivies… your narrow view has really screwed your impression of D1 athletics, and exactly how competitive it is. You should travel to some open tournaments with big teams and get a good taste of how tough D1 sports really are.

#112 Comment By aparent On November 23, 2009 @ 9:17 pm

“We were a .600 team with no all Americans, we never had any illusions that we were anything more than an average even below average level squad, that would be defeated by any big program, but able to compete with even dominate new england schools and most ivies…”

Seems you’re upset that Williams could have beat your team.

#113 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

aparent- lol… uh, no.

#114 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 9:49 pm

aparent- that is not meant as a slam either… even today, with the 10th best team in the nation, Williams could not beat my alma matter in Wrestling. The differences between D1 and D3 in that sport are that intense.

I do not think you guys have any respect for D1 athletics… not really… I don’t think you understand how competitive it is, how physical… how utterly intense D1 really is.

#115 Comment By aparent On November 23, 2009 @ 10:03 pm

Talk about lack of “respect” — and you seem to have forgotten that Willimas athletes choose Williams D3 over D1 for many reasons.

It’s really rather sad to see you carry on this way.

#116 Comment By Derek On November 23, 2009 @ 10:25 pm

Jesus Fucking Christ PTC. Yes, those of us who were athletes at Williams do know, how intense DI sports are, how physical, because almost all of us played DI guys and beat them at one point or another. The track team competes at meets like the Florida Relays. And, again (and again, and again) at the All New England meet. Why do you refuse to address the track and cross country issue? Why do you not address the fact that every year Williams sends athletes to the Harvard Relays and other major indoor meets in Boston with DI and post-college World Class athletes? Why do you refuse to acknowledge top 10 and top 5 and top 3 places by track and cross country at the All New England meets?

I have coached DI athletes. I have coached DII athletes. I have coached at the high school level. And I have competed against them. And I am currently very active with our athletic program at my university. Your grand and deeply dishonest pronouncements that you’re somehow the authority on collegiate sports is laughable.

Why the hell are you taking this in the abstract when we have given you countless examples: Why have you not addressed the Williams-Holy Cross basketball game? Why have you not addressed the numerous successes of the track and cross country teams? (And how can you possibly say that those are minor sports and keep coming back to wrestling? There is no sporting hierarchy in America where track does not come out higher on the spectrum than wrestling.)

Repeat: Why have you not addressed the Williams-Holy Cross game?

In your very brief sentence or two about Fordham you made two factual errors. You asserted that Fordham had not been any good for decades, and you said they played no top 50 teams. Both of those assertions were wholly wrong. They also were 16-11 in conference that year and went to the second round of their conference tournament. They also had a losing record overall. You pretend (by which I mean: lie) that anyone here is saying that they are a great team. They are a pretty average team. But you said we could not beat average teams. And so the goalposts shift. Again.

So now your argument is that those teams that have played Williams must have fielded JV programs. No evidence. No proof. Just an assertion, in the midst of several posts that get to your real point — that your wrestling team was awesome and Williams could not sniff its jock. But this is not an argument about whether or not Williams could beat your alma mater in your sport. The facts are that Williams has beaten DI teams in sports across the spectrum. The only way for you to deny that is to misrepresent those teams or simply to pull obnoxious assertions out of thin air — so suddenly 114 posts in you tell us that your jv wrestling team used to come to Williams and beat us. Well, what a convenient time for that information to emerge. Next thing we know, Kane’s anonymous professor will come in and conveniently back everything you say too.

You are full of crap PTC. You have shifted terrain constantly. To save face you have not only smeared Williams athletes but then have tried to smear the teams Williams has beaten, whether bad, average, or good (Holy Cross basketball — still waiting for a response, UConn, BC, Northeastern, BU track) rather than just confront the reality that Williams athletes have played and succeeded against the DI teams we have competed against on a fairly regular basis across a range of sports.

Every single time you are confronted with reality, you change the terms of the debate, and then you engage in hypotheticals, each sillier than the one before it. And so suddenly if Williams does not play top 25 teams (!) they are illegitimate. That seems to be the latest. Top 25? Are you kidding me? So that’s the standard now? But no one said we would beat those teams. And given that there are more than 350 schools that play DI sports, unless you are saying that only the top 25 matters, your point is irrelevant.

This is infuriating. And if people wonder why I’m taking it so seriously it is because this is not an abstraction — this is very real to me because it is very much personal. This is a dismissal of my entire track career at Williams, and that of my teammates, such as Sal Salamone who won the All New England 400 hurdles in 1993, or Ethan Brooks, who would take any of PTC’s vaunted wrestling teammates and drive them through a wall, or Todd Ducharme, an All New England decathlete, or Seth McClennan, an All New England steeplechaser, or Lee Kiechel, an All New England 400 hurdler, or every other person on the team with whom I sweated and puked and busted my balls. And with whom I won New England and NESCAC champiosnships. And with whom I placed, as a member of the Williams track team, in the top five teams, all divisions, in New England. I chose DIII over DI. And there were lots of reasons for that. But I fucking well showed that I could compete against some of the better athletes in New England and elsewhere, and I am not going to have that tiny slice of accomplishment dismissed by someone who has revealed himself to be so profoundly dishonest that he’s willing to change every argument midstream just to be able to avoid the facts that have been laid out time after time before him.

dcat

#117 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 10:40 pm

aparent- I would think the better athletes choose it for academics. Point blank…Williams is one of the best small colleges in the world.

If they are the best high school athletes in the nation and being recruited by good D1 programs and still attending Williams they are not doing so academics… which is fine. It is indeed a choice, and they choose not to compete in the best programs… such athletes sacrifice that to attend a great school, and there is nothing wrong with that. No lack of respect at all, but you will not achieve the level of play that can be achieved in a good or great D1 program at Williams in almost every sport.

#118 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 10:41 pm

should read.. “they are doing so for academics and other programs…”

#119 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

Derek- But were you as good as you could have been if you attended a D1 program that would have pushed you harder… given you longer hours? Didn’t you give up something doing what you did to go to Williams?

As far as others beating me up, that is just strange. Who cares? I don’t.

#120 Comment By Dick Swart On November 23, 2009 @ 11:15 pm

Are you guys assholes, or what? Just a question…

#121 Comment By PTC On November 23, 2009 @ 11:41 pm

Dick- Not unless someone else wants to tell me how much Williams crushes D1 athletic programs. I am not proud of my college sports days actually…. I was a below average athlete, in a below average division… which is fine. I am just adding some perspective to all this banter about greatness. A little humility never hurt anyone.

#122 Comment By JeffZ On November 24, 2009 @ 12:13 am

Yeah, but PTC, no one has told you “how much Williams crushes D1 athletic programs.” You are the only one making this about some fictitious, phantom claim that Williams would be a D1 powerhouse. For the umpteenth time, all anyone has claimed here, which you haven’t even disputed being initially wrong about, is that in many (but not all) sports, Williams could be competitive with a fair number of NON-CONTENDING D-1 programs. No one is trying to claim Williams is something it is not, other than you, that is. NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT WILLIAMS WOULD BE A CONTENDING D-1 PROGRAM IN ANY SPORT, NOR SHOULD IT EVER ASPIRE TO BE — dominating D-3 is more than enough. We get that you have a major grudge against Williams and look for any excuse to characterize a simple statement of fact — Williams is competitive with a fair number of D-1 programs in a fair number of sports — into some sort of delusional institutional arrogance. Time to move on to the next way in which the college and its alumni have grievously offended you … or maybe we can just have you wrestle Malo one-on-one, and settle this once and for all.

#123 Comment By PTC On November 24, 2009 @ 12:33 am

Jeffz- My Wrestling days are over… I am too old, too slow and too beaten down physically after years of abuse I am afraid.

Although he would lose to the current guy in his weight class… no doubt about that.

#124 Comment By PTC On November 24, 2009 @ 12:40 am

Well.. maybe some small doubt… it could be close I suppose.

Anyhow… this now concludes this very long and extended exploration into the realm of D1 V D3 athletic prowess. For me anyhow.

#125 Comment By JeffZ On November 24, 2009 @ 12:45 am

Dude, that’s what they told Lounden Swain, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRfeK7jtvq0&feature=related

#126 Comment By ’10er On November 24, 2009 @ 1:11 am

Instead of trying to up the quality of the games they play, clearly Williams womens soccer is too good a team to play in the NESCAC. Start removing tips from the womens soccer team until they stop doing so well. Win win.

#127 Comment By nuts On November 24, 2009 @ 4:42 am

PTC will stop if you just ask him where he went to college and how well he did as a wrestler.

#128 Comment By dcatsam On November 24, 2009 @ 10:13 am

The only person who would ask a question like “are you guys assholes or what?” would have to be a world-class fucking asshole.

I’m not sure if that’s irony or simply an utter lack of self awareness, but maybe you could find a clever way to Photoshop it.

Ephblog could do with a lot fewer self-anointed scolds whose contributions to discussions is discussing the tone of others. Calling people assholes sort of undercuts any claims to moral or rhetorical superiority.

dcat

#129 Comment By JeffZ On November 24, 2009 @ 11:09 am

Dcat, while I’ve been on your side in this particular debate, take it easy on Swart … considering that you are the king of the pejorative on Ephblog, kind of odd that you are bitching about someone else employing a relatively mild rebuke …

#130 Comment By dcatsam On November 24, 2009 @ 11:31 am

Jeff —
Dick has brought nothing of substance to this debate, hasn’t partaken of it at all, and then weighs in by calling us assholes? Sorry, no. Not going to take it easy on that. And I’m pretty certain “asshole” is not a “mild rebuke.” There is no one here at Ephblog who has not taken the low road, so I’m gonna reject your little anointing of the crown, thanks so much.

Ephblog is always full of people willing to judge the tone of others. If you’ve got nothing to say on the substance of a particular topic, by all means, don’t feel compelled to weigh in. Fewer pollyannas presuming sanctimoniously to shriek “but what about the prospectives?!?” in meta-conversation would be just fine with me.

I repeat: Calling someone assholes undercuts any claim of moral or rhetorical authority. It also makes you a hypocrite. And hypocrites are the worst kinds of assholes.

dcat

#131 Comment By Dick Swart On November 24, 2009 @ 11:34 am

Thanks for the answer.

#132 Comment By PTC On November 24, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

Nuts- I have done so much more physically than college sports in my life that I obviously have lost the serious perspective that derek and others have of it… to me, it is days gone by, and I have pushed myself so much harder than that physically and mentally later in life that it seems like an odd little snapshot… much like a pro might remember college sports- I would guess. I was not anticipating such strong feelings about college athletic prowess…

As far me as a wrestler.. I was below average D1, but good enough to beat the starters on or near my weight class at most D3 schools… Williams included. I was 121-7 in high school… to put it into perspective, and about .500 D1 in college.

#133 Comment By PTC On November 24, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

Anyhow.. apologies to anyone I may have offended… I do not remember it as blood sweat and tears… or all that arduous- as others might. I should have been more sensitive and less insulting… putting it into perspective of others.

All good I hope.

#134 Comment By nuts On November 25, 2009 @ 1:01 am

@PTC: that’s a fine hs wrestling record. were you on the team at mt greylock, st joe’s?

i’ll go see a few matches this winter.

#135 Comment By PTC On November 25, 2009 @ 5:22 am

nuts- It is a great record if you are wrestling in a tough conference- in a place like PA, NJ or OH it would make you one of the best in HS in the nation and one of the most recruited wrestlers for D1 college… as it was, in New England, it made me good enough to compete in D1.

We had multiple State champions in every weight class, me included.

We had about 5 MA State champs in the room, several of them who had won NE multiple times, 2 NJ State Champs, a number of Prep school All americans, 1 Prep National Champ, a JR College National Champion, two CT State Champs, a NY State Champ etc…etc..etc.

A couple of the guys were ranked in the top 10 in college, and could beat All Americans… I was not one of them. I don’t think we would have lost to Williams.

#136 Comment By PTC On November 25, 2009 @ 5:32 am

Our coach was a 2X D1 National Champion, member of the world team, who had won multiple titles like the Pan Am games…. and there was not a wreslter in the room within 3 weight classes who could take take him down or score anything other than an escape on him. Not at all uncommon to have coaching like that at that level.

I guess my point is- there are levels in these kinds of things- and they do matter, a lot.